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  #1  
Old 12-09-2005, 07:38 PM
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Default Do you have to fold here?

$50 PLO My 6th hand at the table.

UTG- $250 The reason I sat down at the table and posted early. Superfish. He doubled me up my first hand when I flop absolute nuts and just call his pot sized bets with nothing to the river. Hes playing huge pots allmost everyhand.

SB- $80 Dont know him, hasnt done anything 8 hands ive been sitting.

Hero (BB)$105 JJ24h

UTG limps, 3 other limpers, SB and Hero JJ24h check

Flop- 8h 6h Jd

SB bets $2, Hero calls, UTG raises to $4, 3 folds, SB calls, Hero calls

Turn- 8h6hJd 6d

SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets $15, SB calls, Hero raises to $45, UTG calls, SB calls

River- 8h6hJd6d 8d

SB bets $30 all-in, Hero raises to $55 all-in, UTG calls

SB wins with quad 8's, UTG has J6xx


Notwithstanding the fact that UTG calls and gives me back my river call, is this one of those situations where you just have to bite the bullet and save 60 blinds?
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  #2  
Old 12-09-2005, 08:08 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Do you have to fold here?

Even at a higher stakes table, that would have played out for me just the same because of the relative stack sizes. However if both of you had very deep stacks then just a call would have been in order, despite that fact that normally you are going to beat both other players on that board. Just be glad you had more money than the SB to win off the fish and lower your loss.
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  #3  
Old 12-09-2005, 08:59 PM
beset7 beset7 is offline
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Default Re: Do you have to fold here?

[ QUOTE ]


Flop- 8h 6h Jd

SB bets $2, Hero calls, UTG raises to $4, 3 folds, SB calls, Hero calls



[/ QUOTE ]

Dude! RAISE!!!!@#&*(!@#(*&!!!111 A billion turn cards kill your action and you have the friggin nuts. Charge the draws , charge the draws, charge the draws and someday you'll be rich. If you are coinflipping with a big draw so be it. You are way ahead here most of the time and the draws and lower sets will pay you for the privileging of having to reload after you stack them.

With regards to getting stacked with top boat versus quads, this has been addressed in the FAQ
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  #4  
Old 12-10-2005, 12:17 AM
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Default Re: Do you have to fold here?

[ QUOTE ]

Flop- 8h 6h Jd

SB bets $2, Hero calls, UTG raises to $4, 3 folds, SB calls, Hero calls



[/ QUOTE ]

The first call is bad enough, but not popping it here is even worse. This is a draw happy board and eventhough you have 2 hearts, you really don't want to see a turn heart or other card that completes the straight. The fact that someone raised also makes it that much more likely that you are in a potentially very lucrative set over set situation.

There are times when slowplaying is fine, but 3 people showing interest on a draw heavy board with top set in middle position is not one of them.
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  #5  
Old 12-10-2005, 02:07 AM
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Default Re: Do you have to fold here?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Flop- 8h 6h Jd

SB bets $2, Hero calls, UTG raises to $4, 3 folds, SB calls, Hero calls



[/ QUOTE ]

The first call is bad enough, but not popping it here is even worse. This is a draw happy board and eventhough you have 2 hearts, you really don't want to see a turn heart or other card that completes the straight. The fact that someone raised also makes it that much more likely that you are in a potentially very lucrative set over set situation.

There are times when slowplaying is fine, but 3 people showing interest on a draw heavy board with top set in middle position is not one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Admitidly my smoothcalls on the flop were very read dependant on UTG who could be counted on to raise pot sized on turn 75% of the time regardless of what falls. With that the case I have very favorable postion being to the left of the bettor.

But dont you think this is a decent situation to pass up what could be a small edge on the flop in order to exploit a much larger potential edge on the turn. Seems to me that any situation that I might exploit on the flop I will be able to exploit for more money and better odds on the turn if a safe card falls. I think that middle set will be mcuh more likely to get into a raising war on the turn if I dont show much agression on the flop. But I dont know and am interested in comments from more experianced omaha players but it doesnt seem to me that any other line I take gets me all in with 2 other big stacks.
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  #6  
Old 12-10-2005, 03:42 AM
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Default Re: Do you have to fold here?

Earlier today I found myself in a very similar situation (turned out better for me though):

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.25 BB (8 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP2 ($1.90)
<font color="#C00000">CO ($29.45)</font>
Button ($14.25)
<font color="#C00000">SB ($11.15)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($38.90)</font>
UTG ($58.95)
UTG+1 ($20.05)
MP1 ($25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($2) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $0.75</font>, Hero calls $0.75, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $4.9</font>, Button folds, SB calls $4.15, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $21.5</font>, CO calls $16.60, SB calls $6 (All-In).

Turn: ($55.90) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $17.15 (All-In)</font>, CO calls $7.70 (All-In).

River: ($80.75) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $80.75

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
CO has As Ts 9d Ac (two pair, aces and eights)
SB has 7d Kc 7s 2d (three of a kind, sevens).
Hero has 8h 5h Kh 8d (three of a kind, eights).

Outcome: Hero wins $80.75. </font>
I felt the $0.75 cent bet was low enough that I could go for a virtual check-raise. At the time, I didn't feel I had much equity in the pot to defend and I didn't want to play OOP with a fairly deep stack for a moderate sized pot on such a draw heavy board. It was either small or giant - that was my thinking anyway. I also felt fairly confident that someone would put in some kind of raise behind me (there were 6 players left to act after all) but I didn't have as good a reason as you did to believe anyone in particular might raise.

Is this a well thought out line or is it an example of FPS?
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  #7  
Old 12-10-2005, 12:20 PM
TheRempel TheRempel is offline
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Default Re: Do you have to fold here?

It's a good play if your table has been somewhat aggro. Obvious at a passive table this wouldn't fly. In that case, if the SB was fairly tight, I'd make a small reraise to about $2.00 or so, hoping that people will call behind and that the SB will push. It can tend to be a pain in the ass when you flop very strong in early position with someone betting into you and people to act behind. In this case, I think the hand would have turned out the same way no matter what you did.

Fish list both of these guys. The SB is a goof; if he's going to put all the money in with middle set he should do it raising, especially considering his stack, and the CO should be good for a few hundred dollars before he figures out why is play is so goddamn terrible.
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  #8  
Old 12-10-2005, 03:36 PM
boscoboy boscoboy is offline
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Default Re: Do you have to fold here?

Notwithstanding the fact that UTG calls and gives me back my river call, is this one of those situations where you just have to bite the bullet and save 60 blinds?

this made me laugh - right after i stopped laughing at you calling the guy with $250 at a 50pl table a superfish and before i read how you played the nut hand on 2 streets
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  #9  
Old 12-10-2005, 05:43 PM
beset7 beset7 is offline
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Default Re: Do you have to fold here?

[ QUOTE ]
But I dont know and am interested in comments from more experianced omaha players but it doesnt seem to me that any other line I take gets me all in with 2 other big stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the problem here may be a conceptual one.

Figuring out how to get all-in before the river with two big stacks (i.e. disguise your hand) shouldn't be your first priority when you flop top set on a super draw heavy board and people are willing to give you action. If these are the type of players who will pay up with middle set and weak flush/straight draws your goal should be to push every equity edge you can. The best way to do this is to bet and raise.

call/raising the flop is an acceptable play but you have to be damn certain it will be raised behind you. But call/call and then gas the turn or river jus doesn't make any sense. You need to protect your hand and push your edge on the flop. Would you have check folded to a non board pairing heart on the turn or followed your flop plan of getting it all-in?
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  #10  
Old 12-12-2005, 12:54 AM
dibbs dibbs is offline
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Location: east coast
Posts: 39
Default Re: Do you have to fold here?

Am the only one that pumps up that flop?

Everytime I think I get this game Im lead to think otherwise.
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