one situation where i hate every option...should i just roll dice?

[DcifrThs]

so a LAGGY type player raises or 3bets from EMP another ok players early raise.

i have AA/KK/QQ and cold cap from the blinds either one, doesn't matter (just that im OOP).

flop is somethin like J/T/Q high giving me an overpair.

i bet the pf raiser fold the pf3bettor raises a non drawy high card board. he has a top pair here every single time almost. if i 3bet and lead the turn he will fold those time he doesn't and call when he does. when he does have TP, he'll bet the turn call a cr and call down.

so i call the flop and C'R and card that puts a 3straight on teh board. i bet he calls.

finally, on the river, a card thats low falls but now puts a 4 straight on the board.

if i bet and am raised i hate it but can't always fold but always do and should mostly. if i check and he checks behind a pair that i could clearly get value from then i lose value. c'r may work to get him off two pair but thats silly b/c its too expensive when it doesn't work or when i get 3 bet.

so i dont like betting and folding. i dont like checking and calling and i dont like c'ring...

i need another option b/c small changes make vast differences in the relative ev of those options.

-Barron

[lil feller]

If you truly are asking this question in regards to only a "LAGGY" player, I'm left asking whats wrong w/ bet/calling?

By this point the pot has swelled to something like 15bb. How often will he raise w/ a worse 1 pair hand? Tough to say. Also, if he's that laggy you can probably count on him to bet such a scary river after your "weak" river check, and inducing a bluff is never a bad thing.

lf

[DcifrThs]

21/13/1.5 raises EP, 30/15/2 3bets EMP i cap from BB w/ AA.

flop is J93rb. i bet EP folds EMP raises i call.

turn is 8. i c'r and he calls.

river is Q.

action.
Barron

[lil feller]

I also think its imporant to note, given the vagueness of the question, that their is a HUGE difference between having AA in this sort of situation and having QQ in the same situation.

It is, however, an excellent question, and I hope players more skilled then myself (that doesn't take much, trust me), decide to get involved. This is a weakness of mine as well.

lf

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I also think its imporant to note, given the vagueness of the question, that their is a HUGE difference between having AA in this sort of situation and having QQ in the same situation.

It is, however, an excellent question, and I hope players more skilled then myself (that doesn't take much, trust me), decide to get involved. This is a weakness of mine as well.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]

ive come this far...i know there's huge differences etc. but you said it...i would love to know more about the situation. thus i can perform better in the heat of battle...

-Barron

[URMeowed]

Without any notes on the player except that he's a LAG, I bet and call a raise.

In a heads up situation in an online limit holdem game, I TVB the LAGs with impunity. They will just not lay down AK/AQ high in that spot, much less a pair. If he has me beat, it's limit holdem...he wins an extra bet. Since he's a LAG, he could also bluff raise a worse hand and you win two bets instead of one or none.

I am always trying to portray an image for future hands since I play so much online and run into the same players. Now the next time you're in that situation with AK and a board like QJx98 and let's see you picked up a flush draw on the turn so your check raise is now a strong semi bluff, you can flail the river and it doesn't matter to me if they call, raise or fold. If they call, it reinforces paying you off all the time. If they raise, you fold. If they fold, [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] although it might have been the best hand anyways.

But I'm just a cat and always seem to be overthinking situations all the time. When all you do is lay around the house and nap, you have a lot of free time to think about situations and how best to approach them.

Meow.

[DeeJ]

I bet and call a raise unless the player is unaggressive/predictable and won't bluff raise the river.

A good player might well have a T or twopair etc here as often as not, but might also have KK or AQ. Aces are not a hand I fold with unless it's more obvious than this I'm beat (ie I tend to fold aces only in a multiway pot which has been raised on a nasty board).

[catlover]

[ QUOTE ]
21/13/1.5 raises EP, 30/15/2 3bets EMP i cap from BB w/ AA.

flop is J93rb. i bet EP folds EMP raises i call.

turn is 8. i c'r and he calls.

river is Q.

action.
Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a LAG, folding is simply out of the question here. The pot is too big, and he WILL bluff some of the time.

I think you can rule out check-raising, too. There is too much risk he has a straight, and you will lose 3 bets. Furthermore, when he has one pair, even a LAG will often check behind. And with two pair, he will bet and make a crying call.

So you are left with check calling, or leading and calling a raise. Let's look at the four most likely hands for him, and see how they each pan out:

Nothing:
If you lead, he will occasionally call you with ace high. If you check call, you will pick off some bluffs. I'm guessing he will bluff more often than he will call here, so check calling is slightly better, say by +0.2 bets on average. Part of my reasoning -- you have two of the aces in your hand, which makes it harder for him to have ace high.

One pair:
If you lead, he will look you up. On rare occasion he will raise. If you check call, he will usually check behind. Leading is better, I'm guessing by 0.8 bet on average.

Two pair:
If you lead, he usually will *not* raise -- even a LAG is scared of a one-card straight. If you check, he will usually bet, and you will call. So the two options are close to the same. Still, occasionally he will raise your bet, or check behind if you check, so check calling is better for you, say by 0.3 bet on average.

Straight: Obviously, you are better off check calling, as it saves 1 bet.

So check calling is better on three of his four possible hands. The fourth hand (one pair) is however very common, and the advantage of leading into it is large.

Overall, I think you are slightly better off check calling here. But it's close. Against a tighter opponent, who would never raise you with two pair, and would seldom bluff, I think leading would be better.

[rtucker5]

Barron,

I think you are are overthinking these situations. I'm not crazy about a river c/r with 1 pair on a 4 staight board when you can't be confident a 3 bet means he has you beat so that option isn't good. Will he call with a hand you beat? Yes, so you must bet. Will he raise with a hand you beat? Yes, so you must call. Seems like bet/call is the best option.

Randy

[ike]

Just bet/call.