Learning to play poker again. Part 1/3 overcards out of position.

Frogic · #1 07-09-2005, 05:22 PM

Hey all, I'm in the middle(hopefully the end) of a fairly large downswing (6 buyins of NL100, followed by 100bb of 3/6 6 max and 100bb of 3/6 full) so I'm dropping down to 2/4 and teaching myself again. I plan to actually post in the form instead of lurk from now on, as this is my summer job I need to get some confidence back.

Villian in this hand is new at the table, first spin so no reads as of yet.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 6 folds, Hero calls.

My auto-play has been to threebet here and lead on all flops, but my auto-play has been getting me into trouble so after thinking a bit I felt I should try to see a flop, with the position to checkraise anything I like.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

I'm ahead of every hand except for pp and AK, and I may be able to knock AK off of a hand so I go with the C/R.

Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

He doesn't reraise so I bet again planning to fold to a raise.

River: (6.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

At this point I try to induce a bluff since I'm not sure that any hand is calling me that I beat(maybe AJ or AT?)

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

Thoughts?

Hybrid_11 · #2 07-09-2005, 06:02 PM

preflop - I'm having problems following this rule myself but its probably proper to fold this preflop especially from an utg player that we have no reads on. AQ can be a problematic hand.

Now that were in the hand I like the flop check/raise to try and take this pot and I prob play it pretty much the same way except i might lead the river and fold to a raise, seems your getting called down my a wired pair here

Frogic · #3 07-09-2005, 06:13 PM

Is this seriously the rule? I don't think I can get myself to fold AQ for 1 sb, I know that its standard to fold it for the full price.. anyone else want to chime in?

As for the river lead I felt that I was folding 0% of the hands I beat(thats a little much, I might get a call from AJ), and getting called by 100% of the hands that beat me(The most important being AK, since I doubt AK is betting the river since its in the same position, so I'm saving myself 1bb in that situation, same for some timidly played PP. I'm thinking maximum profit/minimum risk.

Frogic

brettbrettr · #4 07-09-2005, 06:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is this seriously the rule? I don't think I can get myself to fold AQ for 1 sb, I know that its standard to fold it for the full price.. anyone else want to chime in?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you typically get into the sort of trouble you did on this hand then you should be folding pre-flop. Really, you're spending a ton of bets here.

Hybrid_11 · #5 07-09-2005, 06:18 PM

I did not realize you were in the BB, thats ok to be calling in the BB but if you didnt have that bet invested i would say fold anywhere else when facing an ep raise

Frogic · #6 07-09-2005, 06:25 PM

If you call what line do you like? check/call check/fold? I think typical opponents are going to raise me on the flop or turn with overpairs and fold AK often enough on the turn (atleast I do, another leak?)

I liked how I played this hand better than the other two, but I could be tainted by the results as he had KQo(which I guess means he wasn't folding AK, even though I still think I was getting out against AK for 1 Bb less)

Frogic

sy_or_bust · #7 07-09-2005, 06:26 PM

The BB call is correct if you play the postflop well. You didn't. Checkraising here looks cool, but it doesn't do anything except spew bets. Your hand on this flop is a big underdog to a typical UTG range. You beat AJs and KQ, but what else? The turn bet will fold both of those hands you beat and rarely fold a better hand. The river check/call is just a donation to an unknown opponent.

If I'm going to play on (and I won't here - there is very little you can push him off on this flop), I will check/call the flop (occassionally bet/call against predictable players) and lead many turn cards. You really need to know your opponent to push him off overs.

In short, you should check/fold on the flop.

Hybrid_11 · #8 07-09-2005, 06:29 PM

With what ive come to recognize ak is probably not folding this raggedy type board. And im not sure where you say your gaining a bb somewhere can you specify what you meant by that.

brettbrettr · #9 07-09-2005, 06:31 PM

I think you got waaay out of line on this hand. Really, the flop check-raise is gutsy but when he doesn't fold to the turn bet I think you're screwed.

I think the river play esepcially sucks. Inducing a bluff from an EP raiser whose shown no intention of going anywhere? If anything you should have bet the river....

Really, I think you got really lucky to win this one. It helps that your opponent is a humongous moron, but most of the time I think you should be check-calling the flop and check-folding the turn, readless of course. If your opponent is a known lag, fine, there's merit to your line. But against reasonable players you're spewing, I think. And if you improve you're liable to lose even more a good portion of the time.

Frogic · #10 07-09-2005, 06:34 PM

I was just saying that AK isn't going to bet this river but will call my bet if I check, same with some pps running scared. To be fair its probably a toss up since AJ is probably calling me here(assuming AJ calls the turn) so I'm probably not gaining much either way.