Sgrena Lied

[mojorisin24]

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I find the whole episode a tragic reminder of how trigger happy the American soldiers have been in Iraq since the first day of military operations.

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You are just plain ignorant. Sorry, but there is no place for your fanciful delusions about a counterinsurgency campaign. American checkpoints are giant bullseyes for insurgents, and the rules governing them are ruthless. Anyone speeding towards one is killed, just like during any US combat operation, anyone in the line of fire is killed. Go back through history and see the number of civilians killed in any conflict. There are countless numbers....yes, such deaths are a tragedy, but they are unavoidable in war. U.S. force protection is the number one priority in Iraq, as most of these guys only want to protect theirs and their buddies' asses and get the hell out of there. Expecting them to hesitate whenever their lives are threatened is ridiculous, and only proves your unrealistic and nonsensical idea of correct U.S. fighting posture.

[Cyrus]

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You've thrown out my evidence on the basis of the fact that it's my evidence.

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Don't tempt me...


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What evidence do you present that American soildiers fired on Sgrena for no reason?

[/ QUOTE ] I did not say "no reason". This is what automatons like you and BCPVP are fixated on. I have submitted that the soldiers at the check points proved to be trigger happy.

"Proved to be" means that subsequent events showed them indeed to be trigger-happy.

The reasons for being trigger-happy? I already explained that they might have had a "legitimate" reason (note quotation marks) such as having being earlier a target of suicide bombers or having been warned of such attacks. I wrote that such a background was possible a week ago -- and now a CNN Report confirms it!

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. The checkpoint was on a curve in the road, which may have been a contributing factor, the report said.

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MY CONCLUSION : The American soldiers in Iraq are suffering from the poor planning of the political leadership. (Others, beside Americans, are also paying a price for that. Such as the Italian secret service man or Iraqi civilians.) The numbnuts on top of the Pentagon, Don Rumsfeld above all, sent fewer troops than the brass asked for, had them sent over there with the minimum of necessary training, had them do actual police work (for which they were patently unaccustomed to and untrained for), did not even provide them with enough Arab-speaking personnel, etcetera etcetera, one snafu on top of another. Add to that the successful operations of the insurgents (successful in that they kill Americans) which adds to the frustration felt by the troops. Add to that the feeling of helplessness felt by many (as expressed volubly by the soldier who dared condront Rummie in that press conference). And so on.

A mixture of incompetence, fatigue and stress from the part of American troops killed that Italian guy.

Which is, by the way, precisely what the Italian investigation now claims! Check it out.

[BCPVP]

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The reasons for being trigger-happy? I already explained that they might have had a "legitimate" reason (note quotation marks) such as having being earlier a target of suicide bombers or having been warned of such attacks.

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There's a difference between being trigger happy and being cautious.

I disagree with your conclusion(suprise suprise) and I'd suggest you actually read the entire transcript of the exchange between Rumsfeld and the soldier. It might be different than what you're spoonfed from www.nogw.com

And it's interesting to note how freely you admit your confirmation bias. The U.S. must be wrong because I don't like GWB, but the Italians must be right because they agree with me. Classic.

[J.R.]

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The U.S. report put much of the blame on Italy for the friendly fire incident, saying Italian agents in Baghdad failed to communicate to U.S. officials their plans to take freed hostage Giuliana Sgrena to the Baghdad airport.

Rome denied that, saying U.S. authorities were "indisputably" aware of the presence of Calipari and a second Italian agent in Baghdad even if "it is likely that they were not aware of the details of their mission."

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linky

surely the Italians/Italian govenment bears no fault

[Cyrus]

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Anyone who believes Bush engineered 9-11 is nuts. And that was just a picture from the site.

[/ QUOTE ] This picture might have been on a CNN or FoxNews report. Would that mean anything?

Are you seriously trying to pin on me ideas such as "Bush engineered 9/11" ? You are seriously grasping.

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I'm sure you'll need it ... seeing as how sad you are about the hundreds of thousands that died under Saddam Hussein.

[/ QUOTE ] I was actually protesting Saddam Hussein's regime and the US aid and support he was getting. What were you doing, kicker? I was protesting that immoral folly while prime assholes were pooh-poohing his atrocities on the basis that "he might be a son of a bitch but he's our son of a bitch". Which means in so many words that Saddam's Baathist regime was (a) preferable to the socialist alternative, and (b) the Iranian mullahs were the focus.

So, spare me your false tears about the Iraqi women and children dead. When Saddam was butchering them, your lot was at best looking the other way; at worst egging him on.

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You'd rather slander our troops and use graphic images of dead children to push your lunatic ideas.

[/ QUOTE ] Lunacy is an appropriate term for a policy that kills and maims innocent children by the thousands (after starving them of food and medicine for a decade -- but that was on "liberal" Clinton's watch, right?) and then does not want us to talk about it because the troops "will be slandered"... Would you happen to know how to go fly a kite?


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I'm sure reality and truth is foreign to your eyes and would look strange when presented to you.

[/ QUOTE ] Well since college life has you so well prepared for "truth" and "reality", feast yer eyes on this:

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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A classified version of a U.S. report on the shooting death of an Italian intelligence agent by American troops in Baghdad says that the Iraqi capital was then under a wave of insurgent attacks reaching into the thousands.
<font color="white"> .
</font> The U.S. report paints a grim picture of insurgency in the Iraqi capitol in the months leading up to the March shootings, including details not made public elsewhere.
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U.S. investigators said it was difficult to reconstruct the shootings because the scene was not preserved.

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So now, it appears not only that there was a snafu, but that the insurgency is actually more serious than we were been led to believe until now! Beautiful. I love it when your side tries to cover up things, only to reveal others. linky

[Cyrus]

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(sarcastically) Surely the Italians/Italian govenment bears no fault.

[/ QUOTE ] On the contrary, the Italian side surely has much to answer for. Such as the exchange between the Italian general and the American captain at his side, to whom the Italian said that the car travel be best kept secret. The American captain now claims that he took this to be a direct order. Which poses a number of questions.

Since when an American captain in Iraq is supposed to be taking orders from an Italian general? The American captain was "an aide" to the Italian general, but did that involve some line of command? I'd take the assignment to mean providing logistic assistance and amenities. I would also assume that the Italian general had flown in especially to oversee the hostage situation but was not given operational authority. (Would he be able to order American troops, for example, to open fire somewhere? I don't think so.)

But the main blame lies with the incompetency of the American brass which led to the ill-trained soldiers' fatigue, stress and fear.

linky

[J.R.]

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Since when an American captain in Iraq is supposed to be taking orders from an Italian general?

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uh, Italy and the U.S. were both part of the coalition, were they not? (assuming this is even true)

[BCPVP]

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Are you seriously trying to pin on me ideas such as "Bush engineered 9/11" ? You are seriously grasping.

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No, I'm questioning the judgement of someone who's trying desperately to discredit U.S. troops as trigger-happy monsters.

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So, spare me your false tears about the Iraqi women and children dead. When Saddam was butchering them, your lot was at best looking the other way; at worst egging him on.

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And yet you denigrate the effort to remove him. Make up your mind please.

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Lunacy is an appropriate term for a policy that kills and maims innocent children by the thousands (after starving them of food and medicine for a decade -- but that was on "liberal" Clinton's watch, right?) and then does not want us to talk about it because the troops "will be slandered"...

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No, lunacy is the leader of a nation spending billions on palaces and bribing UN Security Council nations. It is not the world's job to provide food/medicine to the Iraqis. That is Saddam's responsibility as the leader of his country.

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From your link:
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t also concludes that U.S. forces were never told that agent Nicola Calipari, 50, was trying to spirit a just-freed Italian hostage, journalist Giuliana Sgrena, out of Iraq.

The report finds that the U.S. troops who shot and killed Calipari and wounded Sgrena at a checkpoint were operating within their rules and will not face disciplinary action...

The airport road is considered one of the most dangerous routes in Iraq and is a frequent site of insurgent attacks.

The report said troops along the airport road encountered varying methods of attack, including explosives set on timers, placed along guard rails or along median strips, and even in animal carcasses.

The U.S. report said no American military personnel were aware the Italians would be traveling on the airport road the night of March 4. But the report described an exchange between a U.S. Army captain and an Italian general to whom he had been assigned as an aide.

It said the Italian general suspected Sgrena was on her way to the airport that night but told his American aide, "It is best if no one knows." The captain took that to be a direct order, the report said.

U.S. investigators said it was difficult to reconstruct the shootings because the scene was not preserved but they said they believe the Italians were traveling about 50 mph when American troops flashed lights and signaled them to stop before 11 shots were fired. The checkpoint was on a curve in the road, which may have been a contributing factor, the report said.

A bullet hit Calipari in the head as he attempted to shield Sgrena. The reporter and another bodyguard, who was driving, were wounded.

Soldiers tried to render medical assistance to Calipari at the scene, but he died within a few minutes, the classified report said. The young soldier who fired the shots apparently became so upset he was relieved of his post so he could "collect himself," the report said.

One indicator of how high tensions may have been running is that soldiers manning the checkpoint had been told to be on the watch for suicide car bombers, one in a black car and another in a white one, the report said.

The soldiers had turned around 15 to 30 cars at the checkpoint that evening, so when the Calipari vehicle approached they believed it was a threat, the report said.

The investigating officer "concluded that the vehicle approaching the checkpoint failed to reduce speed until fired upon," said a statement accompanying the report. "The soldiers manning the checkpoint acted in accordance with the rules of engagement."

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Not quite the damning indictment of the troops as you'd like, I'm sure.



And btw, to date I've yet to get kicked above the shoulders in any tournament. You, OTOH, seem to be suffering from anti-troop hysteria. Perhaps you should just go with the men in white...

[Cyrus]

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There's a difference between being trigger happy and being cautious.

[/ QUOTE ] Indeed -- but you don't seem to know it.

Cautious is trying to stay safe. Trigger happy is trying to stay safe no matter what the cost - to anyone within the horizon - and seeing threats where none exists.

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I disagree with your conclusion and I'd suggest you actually read the entire transcript of the exchange between Rumsfeld and the soldier.

[/ QUOTE ] I will concede that the American soldier was actually thanking the Secretary of Defense for the excellent work he had personally done to ensure that the soldiers in Iraq would be sufficient in numbers and adequately equipped to do their job. Okay?

I must have been reading something else not to have caught it right the first time. (Me and a hundred news agencies. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img])

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The U.S. must be wrong because I don't like GWB, .

[/ QUOTE ] You are confused.

The U.S. is wrong to go into Iraq and actually went about it wrong too! (If you gonna do it, do it right, you numbnuts.)

You like GWB but you're not "wrong" as such. You are just fond of fantasies ("America is number one", etc).

Clear ?


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...but the Italians must be right because they agree with me.

[/ QUOTE ] You are very confused. To the point where you now forget what you were posting only hours ago!

You claimed, in so many words, that the Italians were speeding and did not stop -- so they were either crazy or trying to ram through the American checkpoint... I, on the other hand, dismissed the possibility of intentional killing AND claimed that there was recklessness on the part of the Americans. I even gave possible reasons for that posture, e.g. stress caused by other suicide attacks happening at the time. The Italian report just confirmed my version! And they say nothing about any car "speeding" suicidally towards the checkpoint.

Where do you see the Italians agreeing with you? You are tremendously confused.

[Cyrus]

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I'm questioning the judgement of someone who's trying desperately to discredit U.S. troops as trigger-happy monsters

[/ QUOTE ] You tried to link my reasoning with a picture (which you posted up) showing a placard accusing Bush of engineering 9/11. If this is your way of showing that the other side's judgement is flawed, you are indeed desperate.

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And yet you denigrate the effort to remove [Saddam Hussein]. Make up your mind please.

[/ QUOTE ] I don't expect you to understand. You need to learn more about foreign policy, international treaties, diplomacy and (possibly, if it's not a stretch) morals. Then, maybe, you will understand what I'm trying to explain to you.

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From your link: ...
Not quite the damning indictment of the troops as you'd like, I'm sure.

[/ QUOTE ] What I'd like is for the Italian spook to have remained alive. To you, the hardened armchair general, he was but a statistic in the road of American righteousness towards glory and victory. It's called being young and foolish, you'll get over it.

As to the passages you outlined, they all show that the situation was dangerous and that road itself was dangerous as well. Were the troops properly equipped, trained and ordered to assume the task of manning the roadblock? Subsequent events showed that they clearly were not.

Oh. And I am eagerly anticipating your link to where it says that the Italian report agrees with you. You know, where it says about the Italians speeding crazily, like you claim, and trying to ram through the roadblock.

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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To date I've yet to get kicked above the shoulders in any tournament.

[/ QUOTE ] So your brain is located in the vicinity of your testicles. Don't feel bad about it.