Playing AK from Early Position

[mojobluesman]

Are we sure that raising AK from early position is correct even though all the books say you should raise?

For example:

If I raise from UTG before the flop and get called, it's an obvious mistake for my opponents to call without something good (of course, some people do it). If they call and it's a raggy flop, it's hard for me to bet since the range of hands that should call my raise includes a lot of good pairs, and they're happy to have an overpair vs my AK.

But without a raise, I get to play a lot of hands against AJ or KT, or worse in them that would have folded to a raise. If I hit the flop, they will never fold and will call me to the river.

Can we get a discussion going on this that goes beyond "it's a premium value hand so raise it"!

Maybe it's correct against really weak players that will call the raise with crap, but not against better players that won't.

You don't say what stakes you are playing at, but I think you will always find people who will call a raise with anything. AK is a drawing hand but a strong one. Pre-flop you raise it for value and re-raise to try and isolate and get HU with the original raiser. Yes, it's hard to play if it doesn't hit the flop, but that doesn't mean you don't raise with it pre-flop. Maybe you need to look at how you are playing AK after the flop?

[tiltaholic]

ok fine i'll bite.

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Can we get a discussion going on this that goes beyond "it's a premium value hand so raise it"!

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no. not if you are talking about microlimit games where the quality of the opposition is poor.

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Maybe it's correct against really weak players that will call the raise with crap, but not against better players that won't.

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exactly what sort of non crap will better players be playing against us? are we afraid someone has AA-TT always?

[testaaja]

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You don't say what stakes you are playing at, but I think you will always find people who will call a raise with anything. AK is a drawing hand but a strong one. Pre-flop you raise it for value and re-raise to try and isolate and get HU with the original raiser. Yes, it's hard to play if it doesn't hit the flop, but that doesn't mean you don't raise with it pre-flop. Maybe you need to look at how you are playing AK after the flop?

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I completely agree. I've seen these players cold call 52o and call all the way with a pair of fives. you NEED TO RAISE! They will call you if you don't and if you do. So get more money with the best hand in the pot. I usually raise AJ even from SB and BB if there are only a few loosepassivers in the pot. You make alot when they call you with AT or something similar. I'm no expert playing after the flop with missed AK and many times I see myself overplaying it. You need self-discipline!

Against thinking players, it makes you very predictable if you only open big pairs, and makes it very easy for them to play correctly against you post-flop.

At any level, it's a raise for value. Maybe at a level where deception is worth more, you might limp, but never in a microlimit game.

[sean c]

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But without a raise, I get to play a lot of hands against AJ or KT, or worse in them that would have folded to a raise. If I hit the flop, they will never fold and will call me to the river.

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I think this is the main problem with not raising AK pre flop. Most bad players do call raises with these types of hands and still pay off to the river even tag players defend their blinds with these same types of hands and pay off to the river even over playing their hands sometimes. I am not saying deception and mixing up your play isn't part of the game but it tends to be lost on the players that i play against at the party 2/4 and i would assume the same goes for the lower limits. I think in short all you are really doing by not raising AK pre flop is costing yourself money by missing bets.

Also raising allows you to take the lead in the hand and win many pots unimproved so even in tight games raising is far better than trying to trap.

[@bsolute_luck]

you still would like to fold as many hands that have at least 6 outs against you, plus any pocket pairs to fold. AJ/KQ and worse Ax hands sometimes cold call, so they're looking at 3 outs to hit- so you're, in the long run, making money off of these coldcallers even the few times they do hit.

plus you have about 6 outs to a better hand against most 3-betting preflop hands. what i think is sometimes overdone is capping preflop. w/o a lot of dead money (only HU or 3-handed) and against a player who would only 3-bet with a premium hand, capping is spewing IMO.

plus you 3-bet because of the same reasons you raise. you cap when there are players that cold call with such crap as i described above, so you want a big pot to call for your 6-outer, not including the times you may have the best hand and hit your A/K on the flop.

others can work out the math, but hopefully that makes sense.

[imported_The Vibesman]

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what i think is sometimes overdone is capping preflop. w/o a lot of dead money (only HU or 3-handed) and against a player who would only 3-bet with a premium hand, capping is spewing IMO.

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I actually agree with this. I'll cap in multiway pots but not HU or even 3handed usually. Unless I've been playing against the same guy all night and I'm trying to mix it up a bit. But it's the exception.

For all the times I've cursed for raising preflop with AK and have to fold or lose with it post-flop, I still show a substantial profit with it because when I do raise it and win the hand the pots are usually pretty big - whereas if I didn't they tend to be small.

When AK turns into overcards, I think SSH blatantly says most people will never be comfortable playing overcards.

For discussion purposes, when you raise AK preflop from EP and you miss the flop - I almost always autobet/call. In these cases the turn is the crux of the hands. If I bet and am called on the flop and do not improve on the turn, I re-examine the flop for coordination as recommend by SSH (and per size of the pot). If it was really ragged I re-consider check/call check/fold (ragged flops often indicate a pair). If it was really coordinated I re-consider check/call check/fold (very coord flops indicate possible strong draws or slowplays). If the flop was moderately coordinated I am more likely to bet/call. I think showing fold to bet on each street is a crucial PAHUD stat to have here when deciding how to continue.

Again, I too am still uncomfortable raising AK and I often lose with it. But when I win, I win big.

[mojobluesman]

Ok, I guess I wasn't clear enough when I said it's correct against weak players that will call with any crap like in the micros. I know that.

I'm talking about situations where an UTG raise will often if not usually get you heads up against another premium hand - very often a good pair. That situation might not be better than allowing some AJ, KT, KJ hands etc... limp in where we would have them dominated.