KK, with aces on the flop

regisd · #1 09-27-2004, 11:23 PM

i was in the early stages of a MTT and wasn't quite sure what to do with this hand.

Preflop: Heroine (7340) is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of 25.
3 folds, Heroine raises to 150, 1 fold, Button (2790) raises to 450, 2 folds, Heroine calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Heroine bets 450, Button calls.

KK was looking okay pre-flop, but a single ace will kick my butt here unless i improve on turn/river. I figured one bet to chase him out if i could, but after that i was afraid of a check-raise, particularly with the pf re-raise.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Heroine checks, Button checks.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Heroine checks, Button checks.

Final Pot:
Main Pot: > Pot won by Heroine (1875).

Results in white below: 
Heroine has Kc Kd (two pair, aces and kings).
Button has Td Tc (two pair, aces and tens).
Outcome: Heroine wins .

me454555 · #2 09-27-2004, 11:25 PM

Bet the turn, you've got the nut flush draw

jslag · #3 09-28-2004, 12:03 AM

You might consider pushing preflop after he re-raises you. You have him covered and he may be willing to risk his chips with TT in that spot. You could at least re-raise his 450 again.

Considering the flop, I like the way you played it. Once he checks the turn though, I would value bet the river. Very few players would check trip Aces or a made flush on the turn.

Betting the turn isn't bad either, but with the flop call it's risky because he may be able to bluff you out of the pot representing the Ace.

j.

fnurt · #4 09-28-2004, 12:06 AM

The danger in betting the turn is that you can't call a big check-raise, and you have so many outs on the river against an ace if you check behind...

PokerGoblin · #5 09-28-2004, 12:39 AM

interesting post. First of all a couple observations:

You had over 7k in chips while the blinds were 25-50? That's like the second round of the tournament... that's outstanding!! At any rate, with KK you are a 3-1 fav against Ace-x, a 4.5-1 fav against an underpair and about a 10-1 fav against 2 undercards... the only hand you fear seeing is AA.

My first question is, why didn't you set him in preflop after he raised? Even if he has aces and calls you only lose 2700 chips total, leaving you w/ 4800 or so TC, which is plenty chips to dominate when the levels are so low. Figure the avg chip stack to be around 1300 or so (assuming you start w/ 1000).
Furthermore, setting him all in is likely to push him off a hand like AJ or AQ, but you are still likely to be called if he has a sizable pair, which is obviously to your favor.

That aside your postflop play was a little timid for your chipstack, remember that your chips have less value the more of them you have (example - you have 7000 chips, 500 TC is a helluva lot less to you than it is to a guy with say 1200 TC). I like the bet out of position, it was strong enough, yet not so much that you couldn't get away from your hand if he moves all in. When he checked to a free card after the turn I think it's safe to say he didn't have you beat. I would have him on a lower pair there. I figured him for 10's or jacks, I think w/ QQ, KK or AA he'd have moved in preflop. I obviously know nothing about your opponent, it's all speculation on my end, but it's logical at any rate.

After the river card I probably would have fired about 1,200 into the pot. You're giving him a little better than 2-1 pot odds to call, and it will leave him with about 650 to 700 if he calls, which, with 25-50 blinds he can still have a chance to rebuild, at least that's what you want him to think. He's either going to make a bad call or fold. If he folds you don't have to show your cards which is always to your advantage.

So after you were up to 8,000 in TC at that point, how did you end up in the tourney? What site was it? What were the stakes?

PG

JaBlue · #6 09-28-2004, 12:53 AM

Maybe its just me, but I absolutely hate only calling the raise preflop. There's nothing worse than having your kings see an ace on the flop, especially in online play where many people are liable to play "any ace." I would re-raise preflop to 1500 or so and see what action you get. If he comes over the top of you, sweet. If not, he's paying much more preflop to be behind (assuming he doesn't have the rockets).

Just my sixpence

-Jared

willie24 · #7 09-28-2004, 03:43 AM

OK. you can play this hand a lot better in the future.

remember that this is a gambling game, and that most of the people who play it are gamblers by nature who are willing to take risks. just because someone reraises, DO NOT always assume the worst.

furthermore- an important concept in poker is as follows: if you're not going to fold under any circumstances, and you can only lose to a great hand, you have to bet, or otherwise get as much money in the pot as possible. (for instance, check call with the sole intention of inducing a bluff)

why is this true? because if you know you will not fold, you know that you are going to lose big every single time when your opponent does have a great hand. so why not win some money when you do have the best hand? it doesn't cost you anything, because if you lose the hand, you lose that money anyway. why let him off the hook when you end up winning?

you have to reraise preflop. yes he could have AA, but i dont think that he definitely does. what chance do you think that he has AA when he makes this preflop reraise? remember thats the ONLY hand thats ahead of you. is there a 50% chance it's AA? if so, you should still raise, because pot odds are in your favor if you're about 50% to win. but - there's no way his chances of having AA are anything even remotely close to 50%. they are certainly less than 20%. so you must reraise. you are giving away a ton of profit here by not reraising.

once you make it to the flop...
2 aces flop. this is less scary than 1 ace...because when the 2nd ace flops the chances of any player having an ace have just been reduced by 33%.

think about what your opponent might have at this point that could beat you. what would he RERAISE with preflop that could beat you? AK? well, there are 2 aces and 2 kings already accounted for, so this is pretty unlikely. AQ? maybe, but that would be a gutsy preflop reraise, and again 2 aces are already accounted for, so this is less likely. AJ, A10 etc... not likely that a normal player would reraise a big stack with those hands preflop the way that he did. so any ace is pretty unlikely. what else could he have? well, pocket pairs obviously. there are 13 different pocket pairs, and the only ones that can beat you are 66 and AA. obviously its safe to take your chances with him having quad aces. you have to figure that you are extremely likely to be ahead here, but are still fairly likely to get action (if he does indeed have a decent pocket pair.)

therefore, you need to bet for value on EVERY round. your bet should be an amount that you think will get called by a pocket pair...ideally the highest amount that you think will get called. If he does have an ace, so be it. he will raise allin and youll call anyway - so you dont risk anything by betting.
you did a good job of betting on the flop, but you need to do it on turn and river also. remember, you're not folding here. if you see him go allin in this situation 100 times and call all 100 times, you're going to end up with a lot more money than if you folded 100 times. because you cant fold, you must bet...in case you're winning (which is extremely likely here).

SossMan · #8 09-28-2004, 11:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The danger in betting the turn is that you can't call a big check-raise, and you have so many outs on the river against an ace if you check behind...

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm, the old button check raise rearing its ugly head again....dag nabbit!!

SossMan · #9 09-28-2004, 11:49 AM

I would never be in this situation since i would have pushed preflop.

I don't mind the check on the turn to induce a bluff either on the turn or induce a call of your river value bet. You are not laying this hand down to any bet anyway (getting 2:1 on his all in) and there aren't many free cards that hurt you.
Once your opponent checks behind on the river, though, he is telling you that your hand is good. Go ahead and make that river value bet. It is rare that an opponent would check behind an ace on the turn w/ 3 of a suit on the board.
Everything in this hand screams underpair and it seems that you will get paid off if even if he doesn't hit his 2 outer.

fnurt · #10 09-28-2004, 12:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The danger in betting the turn is that you can't call a big check-raise, and you have so many outs on the river against an ace if you check behind...

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm, the old button check raise rearing its ugly head again....dag nabbit!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop making me look stupid. Oh wait, I did that to myself.