KJs in the monkey house

[PokerBob]

Canterbury 8/16 9 handed
This game is insane. The straddler here is a drunk crazy gambooooling Asian dude who raises blind often and is a nut. The next dude is a total fish retard. The next dude is also a total fish retard. I have the best seat in the game, as these retards are on my right and the TAGish players take up the 3 seats to my left (I seat change g00t [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).

So, UTG straddles, UTG+1 of course CC's, next donkey now raises. He plays very poorly pre and postflop. he could have any ace here or any pair. He could have a monster too. I look down at K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. What's my move?

[WillyTrailer]

I'd call. I like playing hands against bad players with position on them.
I don't see much of a reason to 4-bet unless you're afraid of some of the guys behind you and even then I don't think a 4-bet is keeping many hands out that you want out (maybe AJ?)
You've got a good hand and good position and people tend to go apeshit when there's a straddle.

-WT

Wow it seems like the only one of you that has any brains is Joe tall... The best play here is to fold and wait for a better chance. Plus if the game is this stupid you'll likely be throwing away money. Guys this isn't a solar eclipse if the game is like this then they will keep pissing money away. I can't believe so many of you love this king jack suited (#&$^) it's such garbage of a hand. I'd much perfer to take a big hand (obviously) or even a Ace X wheel draw suited, small pp, jack ten off suit, something like that where i'm drawing to specific hand situations that will pay me off with all this loose action. The worst thing you want to do is get trapped with hitting a king or a jack and pissign money into the river just to find out your dead. Or even worse hitting your hand and not playing it agressively enough and letting someone get there. King jack suited is not a premium hand to pick a battle with, re raising at this point is a little too lose I think. Calling is about just as bad here. If we were in later position it'd be a different situation, espicaly with the 5 bet cap and straddle worst thing you can have is to get it capped preflop and hit a king now that your commited and you'd assume even one of these donkeys at least has a decent hand. You gotta remember that even though poker bobs excellent description using the terms 'retards' and 'fish' even they will find big hands time to time. And there is no real good reason for us to give their money back to them just because they find a big hand occasionally. SO all in all find a better spot dont' gamble, gambling is for donkeys. -Andrew

[Dazarath]

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Wow it seems like the only one of you that has any brains is Joe tall...

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This statement was unnecessary and probably hasn't helped anyone to believe you know what you're talking about.

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The best play here is to fold and wait for a better chance.

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We're on the medium stakes forum; we should be beyond the level of "oh, this situation is too marginal, I'm going to fold and wait for a really +EV situation.". In a given situation, it's either +EV to play, or it's not. If it's +EV, we need to play no matter how small that EV is.

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You gotta remember that even though poker bobs excellent description using the terms 'retards' and 'fish' even they will find big hands time to time.

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So what? What's your point? That's like saying you shouldn't 3-bet AKo against a blind raiser, because "even people who raise blind get aces and kings sometimes." Poor thought process. The players in this hand have certain hand ranges for choosing their given actions. The straddler has any two cards, the next guy probably has some large range of hands, but excluding premium hands, as he did not raise, and the third guy has Ax+ 22+ with some other hands thrown in. The discussion isn't about whether we can find a better spot or not. We know we can. The discussion is about which of the 3 options (raise, call, fold) yields the most EV in the long run.

[slavic]

[Quote] So what? What's your point? That's like saying you shouldn't 3-bet AKo against a blind raiser, because "even people who raise blind get aces and kings sometimes." Poor thought process. The players in this hand have certain hand ranges for choosing their given actions. The straddler has any two cards, the next guy probably has some large range of hands, but excluding premium hands, as he did not raise, and the third guy has Ax+ 22+ with some other hands thrown in. The discussion isn't about whether we can find a better spot or not. We know we can. The discussion is about which of the 3 options (raise, call, fold) yields the most EV in the long run.

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I would say playing AK vs a blind steal is quite a bit different than the situation presented. If we were to lock this game down to 1 hand then the obvious play is to make it 4 bets. The problem is that this is never the case.

Case in point: Let's flip a coin.

YOu will have an edge of $0.01 on Every coin flip and the bet size will be $1,000,000 oh an every now and then I'll offer a bet size of $1.

When will you play? Everything is +EV

[Dazarath]

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I would say playing AK vs a blind steal is quite a bit different than the situation presented. If we were to lock this game down to 1 hand then the obvious play is to make it 4 bets. The problem is that this is never the case.

Case in point: Let's flip a coin.

YOu will have an edge of $0.01 on Every coin flip and the bet size will be $1,000,000 oh an every now and then I'll offer a bet size of $1.

When will you play? Everything is +EV

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I think you're misunderstanding my point. I was trying to say that using the logic "even fish get good hands occasionally, so we should fold" is faulty logic. If someone raises without looking at their cards, it's an easy 3-bet with AKo, even though their range includes AA/KK. By the poster's logic, we should fold AKo, because "even someone who raises in the dark gets aces and kings."

As for the situation you pointed out, it's a bit different than the situation that the OP has posted. The difference is that I don't have the bankroll to be making million dollar bets. I'm assuming the OP has the bankroll to play the stakes he's playing at. In limit hold'em (for the most part), there aren't situations where the variance is so high that it'll substantially increase our risk of ruin, assuming that we're properly bankrolled.

[Joe Tall]

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I can't believe so many of you love this king jack suited (#&$^) it's such garbage of a hand.

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It's not a garbage hand but in this situation it's a fold given the texture of the game.

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jack ten off suit, something like that where i'm drawing to specific hand situations

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Now, JTo is a garbage hand in nearly every game.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i wouldn't cap.

[PokerBob]

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i wouldn't cap.

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5 bets is the cap.

[goofball]

4bet. Good hand good relative position, can't fold, drive out people behind you in the already big pot.