commerce 30-60 question for andy

"had to call the floor over when a debate ensued as to who deserved the extra chip in a split pot"


Used to be they actually split the chip; now they use bridge suits to determine who gets the extra chip, which is, IMO, ludicrous. They don't determine who should get the pot by suits, why should they determine who gets the extra chip by suits? I assume they did it to speed up play, but half the time the guys have mixed up their cards or mucked them by the time the dealer realized there's an extra chip, and a discussion does ensue.


Anyway, sounds like there are just as many jerks in the 20-40 as in the 30-60.


"miserable c*cksucker": Is there any other kind?

I think this is common at most casinos, where the 4-chip games like 20-40, 4-8, etc. have considerably more "action" and gambling types than the 15-30, 3-6. I'm not sure exactly why this is but i guess it would be due to the pots mathematically 25% bigger, which causes people to call for "pot-size", which causes the pots to get even larger, turning it into a cycle. Also, it's the same color chips but more of it, which causes steamers to lose even more quickly and rushers to play their rush even more strongly. I saw a couple 2+ rack pots in the 20-40 yesterday, but i havent seen a rack and a half+ pot in the 15-30 in quite some time. Anyone noticing this as well and have any thoughts on it?


DN

I played this weekend in a game I am new to (2d weekend in it) and observed the opposite phenomenon. The game started as 15-30, but was bumped to 20-40 at the request of several players. I was a little uncomfortable with the stakes but didn't object (one objection would have kept it at 15-30)and played anyway. The game kept going overnight with some players leaving then coming back. I played for a long time the next day and we switched back to 15-30 around midnight. We did it because the game was dying at 20-40. An action player or two left and replacements were hard to come by. When we switched back we got a couple of more players and the pots got bigger. Players had tightened up at 20-40. The game was also more passive at 15-30, maybe because people didn't have as much a raise or fold mentality. A few of us discussed it and thought it might be a better idea to keep the game at 15-30 in the future. Granted this was in a more limited poker market than LA or Las Vegas, but Bellagio seems to get a lot more 15-30 than Mirage 20-40.

Not much scientific evidence here, but some speculation:


Where I play, 15-30 and 20-40 use the same chips ($5 chips). There's a separate room for the "top section"; 15-30 is the smallest game there. So a player looking for "action" who plays "yellow chips" ($5 chips) will move up to the 20-40. Thus more action players in 20-40 than 15-30.


30-60 and 40-80 use $10 chips. So the same phenomenon may be at work. There seems to be, as well, a bigger group of players in the 15-30 and 30-60 who are satisfied playing at that level, while at 20-40, there seems to be a bunch waiting to play 30-60, and thus they play fast and loose at the lower stake. Likewise in the 40-80, there are players waiting to play 80-160.


I've always felt the 2nd highest limit in a club is usually a tougher game than the highest limit. While the 15-30 and 30-60 don't qualify as the 2nd highest limit in the club, they do qualify as the 2nd highest limit at the chip-color level, and the chip-color levels seem to be distinct sections within the cardroom.


In theory, at least, one would think the 15-30 and 30-60 would be slightly better games as many small blinds limp for one chip where they don't in the 20-40 and 40-80. I believe Mason has written an essay, or section of an essay on this, don't remember which book it appears in.

HDPM,


I think Andy nailed it below. At the Commerce and Hollywood Park the 15/30 and 20/40 games are side by side. In Las Vegas you need to go down the street to play in a $5 chip game with the different blind structures.


Regards,


Rick

Andy,


There is little doubt that the 15/30 games at Hollywood Park and the Commerce are tighter and less aggressive than the nearby 20/40 games. Whether they are better or worse depends on how well you play in each type of game.


In addition to the reasons you mentioned, I think because the 15/30 is the lowest limit of "top section"** a lot of players who can barely afford it and despise the per pot collection and jackpot drop and want to be "top section" players tend to play at that limit. Mason's theory (which I think is otherwise valid) on the 2/3 small blind making a game looser and more aggressive is overwhelmed by these other factors in Los Angeles.


** The 10/20 at Hollywood is a special case. That game is moderately tight and somewhat passive and very social.


Regards,


Rick

first off i flopped a set of 8s in a capped 7 way pot at 20-40 the other night. capped on the flop 5 or 6 way. some guy turned his gutshot and i didnt fill up. the pot was $1700. biggest 20-40 pot ive ever seen. i must admit i was almost in tears after that loss.


anyway, yeah the pots at 20-40 appear huge even if theyre medium size. people tend to play a little more aggro at 20 i think as well. the 15 game at commerce is like the softest easiest game in the world.

I asked about the pot limit today. I was told the buy-in minimum is $400 and they play with two blinds, $10 and $20. The game is rarely going during the day, but usually is going at night. The floorman seemed unsure about the $400 buy-in, but seemed more positive about the blind structure.


Not quite first-hand information, but hope it helps.

Thanks Andy. That helps.


-Zeno

You can't compare the games in Vegas because I think Bellagio just holds a lot more cachet among the tourists. Mirage games tend to get a lot of people that just bitch about the management of the Bellagio, which means a ton of locals. Besides there are fewer games, you end up playing the same people a lot in the Mirage. I think those factors make a comparison impossible. However I will say that 10-20 is a poor game often just for "looks". Two chips/four chips just never makes the pot look big. One guy I talk to say sometimes he intentionally bets with blues just to make the pot look a little better. Problem is the dealers take the blues out most of the time if you bet them too much. So I think much of it is psychology. The bigger "looking" pots get more action and that explains much of the difference in a nutshell. There are certainly other factors like where the livest players choose to play and what the next level up and down is to determine if you get higher players splashing chips around or tighter players looking to pick up a rack and leave when they aren't comfortable with the limit. One thing though I would suggest never never never doing is voting for a higher limit game. All that does is make bad players play tighter. They know they are long run losers so they play tighter just to make sure they can stay in action as long as they could before.