SnG Challenge, Week 1

[Inthacup]

Hi all, over the next few weeks/months I plan on playing in SnGs instead of ring games. As of late, I have been playing a lot of shorthanded 6-man tables. I think this has noticeably helped me in the later stages of a SnG.

Naturally, there are some adjustments that need to be made when moving up to 100+9. There are still plenty of morons, but they select different times to be stupid than in the low limit SnGs. For example, back in my 10+1 days, I can recall that a player would bust out before reaching level 2. I haven’t seen this at a 100+9 yet. In part, this is because we start out with 1000 chips vs. 800. Also, when playing low limit SnGs, some people with bet and raise with marginal holdings regardless of chip position or number of players left. The majority of the people at 100+9 have a general concept of this, but it many ways, that’s just another weakness to exploit. For instance, if you get a decent amount of chips(1500+), it can be very easy to steal the blinds vs. other players with the same amount of chips. In lower limit games, the chances of getting called are higher, which forces you to be more selective with your stealing hands.

1-3-04 through 1-8-04

I didn’t keep a journal on these days, because I didn’t really decide to keep a daily journal until Friday. To sum up these days, I played in 65 100s and finished in the money 49.23% of the time. My avg. finish was 4.38. I got 12 1st, 9 2nd and 11 3rd place finishes. The net amount won was $3,815.

From Ulysses: I have decided to conclude my series of SNGs challenge. I did the Party 100+9NL and made $158 profit per SNG. See my earlier post in this thread for details. I have decided to exclude the 4th one from my stats because I was running late for dinner and I pushed all-in a couple of times when I normally wouldn't and lost. So, there is the bar. $158 profit per SNG. Let's see what you can do Mr. Inthacup. If you can get to $10k in 63 SNGs, you win.


I wasn’t even close.


1-9-04

Things started out slow. Over my first 150 hands, my stats are:

Hands won: 2%
Showdowns won: 50%
Flops Seen: 13%
Win % if flops Seen: 18%

As a result, I went out early in my first 100+9 and 200+15.

I played 3 100+9s today. I finished 9th, 2nd and 1st. I witnessed this hand and thought it was interesting. There were 3 of us left and I was by far the short stack:
***** Hand History for Game XXXXXXXXXX *****

500/1000 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (Limit) (Tournament 1837177) - Fri Jan 09 00:00:00 EST 2004

Table Card Room Table 3792 (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 4: Inthacup (950)
Seat 6: Player2 (3235)
Seat 7: Player3 (5815)
Player2 posts small blind (250)
Player3 posts big blind (500)

** Dealing down cards **
Inthacup folds.
Player2 raises (750) to 1000
Player3 raises (1000) to 1500
Player2 raises (1000) to 2000
Player3 calls (500)

** Dealing Flop ** : [ Jh, 7c, 4c ]
Player2 bets (500)
Player3 raises (1000) to 1000
Player2 calls (500)

** Dealing Turn ** : [ 8d ]
Player2 bets (235)
Player2 calls all-In.
Player3 calls (235)

** Dealing River ** : [ 3c ]
Creating Main Pot with $6470 with Player2
** Summary **
Main Pot: 6470 |
Board: [ Jh 7c 4c 8d 3c ]
Inthacup balance 950, didn't bet (folded)
Player2 balance 0, lost 3235 [ Ah Qd ] [ high card ace -- Ah,Qd,Jh,8d,7c ]
Player3 balance 9050, bet 3235, collected 6470, net +3235 [ 9s 9c ] [ a pair of nines -- Jh,9s,9c,8d,7c ]
Player2 finished in third place and won $200.




I think Player 2 made a huge mistake by getting so involved in this hand. He could have easily coasted in to second before turning up the heat. His mistake made me an extra $200.


I also played in 2 200+15s today. I felt something I hadn’t felt in a while: nerves. I actually got butterflies as the table was filling. It didn’t last long though, because I didn’t feel that at all on the second one, which is good because I don’t like that feeling. It interferes with my decisions. I went 0-2 in the 200s today. Great way to get started. Not much to tell really. Didn’t get many hands and was never above 1k in chips the entire time.


1-10-03


I placed 1st in my first 200 today. It was exhilarating. In total, I played in 12 200s today and finished 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 1, 1. One thing I’ve noticed since I started playing 100s and above is that I either go out early or I usually make the money. I think a factor in that is that oftentimes, the table will make it to level 3 and everyone will still be in. I’ve been working on my game for when 7-4 players are still in. If I have enough chips to be a factor(1500+), I put as much pressure on the short stacks as possible. Most mid-short stacked players will fold to a PF raise unless they have a real hand. If you’re not stealing a good amount of blinds here, your play is way too passive.

On the other hand, I played 9 100s today. I got a pretty bad run of good cards and only placed in 1 of 9 tourneys. The general theme was I’d play tight until level 3 or 4, get a big hand(AQ or better), lose and piss away the last 200 in chips. I think my worst run in tourneys is 1-13. I’d like to hear the worst runs others have had.

Here’s a hand I think a better player may have folded on the turn. It's really hard to tell if a player is jamming the pot because they're desperate and want to go all-in or if they really do have a hand:

***** Hand History for Game XXXXXXXXXXX *****

50/100 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (Limit) (Tournament 1836754) - Fri Jan 09 00:00:00 EST 2004
Table Card Room Table 3812 (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Player1 (1370)
Seat 2: Player2 (1050)
Seat 3: Player3 (1500)
Seat 4: Inthacup (900)
Seat 5: Player5 (1175)
Seat 6: Player6 (610)
Seat 7: Player7 (1555)
Seat 8: Player8 (1075)
Seat 9: Player9 (545)
Seat 10: Player10 (220)
Player5 posts small blind (25)
Player6 posts big blind (50)

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Inthacup: [Kc Ks]
Player7 calls (50)
Player8 folds.
Player9 raises (100) to 100
Player10 folds.
Player1 folds.
Player2 folds.
Player3 folds.
Inthacup raises (150) to 150
Player5 calls (125)
Player6 calls (100)
Player7 calls (100)
Player9 calls (50)

** Dealing Flop ** : [ 9h, Tc, 5h ]
Player5 bets (50)
Player6 calls (50)
Player7 folds.
Player9 calls (50)
Inthacup raises (100) to 100
Player5 calls (50)
Player6 calls (50)
Player9 calls (50)

** Dealing Turn ** : [ Qh ]
Player5 checks.
Player6 bets (100)
Player9 raises (200) to 200
Inthacup raises (300) to 300
Player5 folds.
Player6 calls (200)
Player9 calls (95)
Player9 calls all-In.
Creating Main Pot with $2035 with Player9

** Dealing River ** : [ 7h ]
Player6 bets (60)
Player6 calls all-In.
Inthacup calls (60)
Creating Side Pot 1 with $130 with Player6
** Summary **
Main Pot: 2035 | Side Pot 1: 130 |
Board: [ 9h Tc 5h Qh 7h ]
Player1 balance 1370, didn't bet (folded)
Player2 balance 1050, didn't bet (folded)
Player3 balance 1500, didn't bet (folded)
Inthacup balance 290, lost 610 [ Kc Ks ] [ a pair of kings -- Kc,Ks,Qh,Tc,9h ]
Player5 balance 925, lost 250 (folded)
Player6 balance 130, bet 610, collected 130, lost -480 [ 6h Kh ] [ a flush, king high -- Kh,Qh,9h,7h,6h ]
Player7 balance 1405, lost 150 (folded)
Player8 balance 1075, didn't bet (folded)
Player9 balance 2035, bet 545, collected 2035, net +1490 [ Ah Qc ] [ a flush, ace high with ace kicker -- Ah,Qh,9h,7h,5h ]
Player10 balance 220, didn't bet (folded)



Here’s a HU hand that I found interesting. This player was folding to most of my raises. However, post flop, he would usually call if I bet. On the river, I felt pretty confident:



***** Hand History for Game XXXXXXXXXX *****

400/800 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (Limit) (Tournament 1847032) - Sat Jan 10 00:00:00 EST 2004
Table Card Room Table 4318 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 3: Inthacup (6980)
Seat 7: Player2 (3020)
Inthacup posts small blind (200)
Player2 posts big blind (400)

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Inthacup [Kd 6c]
Inthacup raises (600) to 800
Player2 calls (400)

** Dealing Flop ** : [ 9h, 8h, 4h ]
Player2 checks.
Inthacup checks.

** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2d ]
Player2 checks.
Inthacup checks.

** Dealing River ** : [ 8c ]
Player2 bets (800)
Inthacup calls (800)

** Summary **
Main Pot: 3200
Board: [ 9h 8h 4h 2d 8c ]
Inthacup balance 8580, bet 1600, collected 3200, net +1600 [ Kd 6c ] [ a pair of eights with king kicker -- Kd,9h,8h,8c,6cKd(kicker card) ]
Player2 balance 1420, lost 1600 [ 3d 7d ] [ a pair of eights -- 9h,8h,8c,7d,4h ]



1-11-03

I didn’t get to play in many tourneys today. I’m getting married in the near future and we had to register for wedding gifts at a few places around town. GAWD, I can only look at towels and drapes for so long. It’s an exciting time though. Fortunately, we have most of the major planning out of the way. I still have a few things to wrap up(like a bachelor party in Vegas), but otherwise, things are going smoothly.

I played 2 200s today and finished 3rd and 1st. In each case, we reached the final 3 with about 3k chips each. I managed to double up early in one and take control. In the other, I lost a big pot early and got blinded out. Meh.

I played in 2 100s as well. In the first one, I totally dominated early on. By the first hand on level 4, I had 7k in chips. When we were 3 handed, I lost to a few all ins and got down to 3300 in chips. I went many raises HU with another player with about 2500 in chips. He basically went all in preflop and my AK beat his AQ unimproved. It’s hands like that where you just pray he doesn’t have a pocket pair. Afterwards, with almost 6k in chips, I managed to put enough pressure on the other player and I took first.


So far this week, I’ve played in 79 100+9s and 16 200+15s.

100+9 stats:

79 Tourneys
% in money: 45.57%
Gross winnings: $12,400
Net winnings: $3,789
Avg. Finish: 4.47

1- 14
2 - 10
3 - 12
4 – 9
5 – 5
6 – 8
7 – 5
8 – 8
9 – 5
10 - 3


200+15 stats:

16 tourneys
% in money: 43.75
Gross winnings: $4,600
Net winnings: $1,160
Avg. Finish: 4.81

1- 3
2- 0
3- 4
4- 2
5- 0
6- 2
7- 1
8- 2
9- 1
10- 1



This has to be the longest post I've ever written. Even without the hand histories. I'd love to hear some feedback from those who play SnGs. Comparisons on things like % in money, avg. finish etc would be great. Feel free to critique my play. Hopefully, I'll gain some insight on my play/stats. Thanks.



Cup

[Simon Diamond]

This has to be the longest post I've ever written.

And it is the longest I have ever read from start to finish - really enjoyed it.

Feel free to critique my play.

You have made just under $5,000 in a week in these tournaments right? You should be making more! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

In all seriousness, you seem to going about your task the right way and that can only be a good thing. Good luck to you in the coming weeks and keep up reports of that quality please. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Simon

[Legend27]

The only sng's I do are for the $200 multi table tournaments on party. 1st gets an entry and 2nd gets their buy-in back. I get 1st about 1/7 times.

[MS Sunshine]

"** Dealing Turn ** : [ Qh ]
Player5 checks.
Player6 bets (100)
Player9 raises (200) to 200
Inthacup raises (300) to 300"

The Qh is a global killer with this many players in for your hand. I can see that you wish to ruin the odds for any draws with the 3-bet with a possible best hand. I wouldn't have raised, but your other choices are not good either. I like fold here, but I can't swear that I could do it with such a large pot, but you also don't HAVE to win this pot to cash in the tourny. That only leaves call and fold to any further pressure.

Are you finding yourself able to do much table selection at these limits?

MS Sunshine

[Inthacup]

Are you finding yourself able to do much table selection at these limits?

No, not really. I notice at least 2-3 people that I've played before, especially at the 200s. The good thing is that most of these regulars aren't too good at all.


Cup

[lostinthought]

Great post cup, and good luck towards achieving your goal..
One question I have for you -

Before setting out to do this, what kind of bankroll did you have, or did you think was reasonable for this project?

thanks

[Inthacup]

what kind of bankroll did you have, or did you think was reasonable for this project?


Reasonable? I'm not exactly sure. Assuming that I'm a winning player, I would imagine that 25-30 buyins would be reasonable. I have over 50 buy ins available for the 200 game. I'd like to hear what others think is sufficient.


Cup

[Lori]

Reasonable? I'm not exactly sure. Assuming that I'm a winning player, I would imagine that 25-30 buyins would be reasonable. I have over 50 buy ins available for the 200 game. I'd like to hear what others think is sufficient.


In low limits, Ive always said 25 is required, although I don't beleive I've ever had a -20 run.

I'm going to guess that at higher limits 30-35 is probably extremely safe for a winning player and 50 is not only safe, but gives you peace of mind.

Lori

[alekhine8]

Great post - please continue with them.

I have had success at the SNGs (30%-40% return) but I have only played at the $10s and $30s. While I am still winning at a similar rate (35% or so), it has been a huge adjustment in my opinion. Not as many manaics going all-in during the first level with 88 or A4o, but still quite beatable.

My bankroll is currently about $1,050 so I guess I could play the $50s but I feel I need to get a couple hundred more in at the $30 level as I have only played about 75 so far. That, and I dont really want to lose my br because Im looking to cash some of it out soon, so Im not moving up any time soon. Im just hoping that I can maintain my win rate each time I move up (or something close to it).

I am questioning my play during the first 3-4 levels. I say this because I win more than my fair share once I make the money and I play a short stack very aggressively. What Im saying is I think I am only playing aggressive enough when Ive already won money or Im short stacked and have to just to survive.

What is your general strategy early? I try to get in with drawing hands cheaply (pairs, low/mid suited connectors) and flop some monsters. But I always find myself with about 100-150 fewer chips than I started with at level 4 and 6-8 people left.

[goodguy_1]

Cup:
Dude great job and a fine post-I wish you dabest!!.Keep us updated on your results.Dont be surprised if you cool down a bit...looks like you are running very good.

I am just now starting to think about playing more 1- table SNG's rather than my current mix of ring games and MTT's.

I have a few questions for you:
What type of sample size have you used in various limits as you moved up:How many sng's are needed to get an accurate feel for your winrate ??

I'm not looking for a mathemantically dead-on number just a number you feel is about right is it 50 100 200 etc.??

What type of ROI per tourney and In-the-money rate did you have in lower level sng's as you moved up($10,$30,$50 NL/PL/LHE)??(If you dont want to publically disclose this PM if you see fit)

I realize that these questions may not be the kind of specifc feedback you want but I bet others on here would find your answers to these queries educational.

Keep up the good job with this..originally I thought your posting these to this forum was a little bit of an ego-thing but I know you from chatting I can see that you are just genuinely exciting about your succes in this new arena...By posting here on this you are helping all Zoo'ers who havent yet diversified their game ..at least now more may think about diversifying !!so I think your posts are very valuable.

Lori,others any feedback is welcome on these specific sng question on sample size,ROI and In-theMoney%'s at all levels..


Thnx Lee