The AK turn spot

Steve Giufre · #1 10-31-2005, 08:50 PM

Party Poker 50/100 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 4 folds, Hero 3-bets, 4 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB

OK, I want to give some quick thoughts first cause there is only one thing I find mildy interesting about this hand. Its a typical turn spot where you can either bet the turn, and decide whether or not there is any value to bet the river or you can check the turn, and call a bet or usually bet when checked to.

My default here is to bet the turn, and usually check behind the river, although there are certainly players I would still value bet on the end had I put the turn bet in. But, I was thinking that when the raise comes from very early position, and the player in question doesnt have a range that is real big, it might be better to check behind. The reason being that if you arnt already behind to a a pair, then he probably also had an ace in his hand, giving him only 3 outs. Also, if he isnt a total calling staion, you'll usually get another bet because he will either fire the river or pay off with a worse ace high.

When the open raise comes from later position, or its just a guy who has a very big range, I think checking the turn is a very big mistake, since he can now have a lot of 6 out hands, 109, QJ, etc. Also your hand is just so likely to be best on a ragged flop, doing anything other betting would be bad. Keep in mind that I'm not talking about players who will call all three bets with A10 AJ type hands, its obvious that betting the turn is best agaist those types of opponents. Maybe this position thing is really obvious, I think its one of those things I probably think about subconsciously when Im playing without really realizing it. Just wanted to bring it up because besides the raisers postflop tendancies, its the other thing that helps me decide when I want to bet and when I want to check behind.

bobbyi · #2 10-31-2005, 09:15 PM

Good post. I like your analysis.

#3 10-31-2005, 09:35 PM

I like a turn bet, river check.

AceHigh · #4 10-31-2005, 09:43 PM

Why bet the river after checking the turn? Aren't you a dog to win on the river if you get called?

mc1023 · #5 10-31-2005, 10:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My default here is to bet the turn, and usually check behind the river, although there are certainly players I would still value bet on the end had I put the turn bet in. But, I was thinking that when the raise comes from very early position, and the player in question doesnt have a range that is real big, it might be better to check behind. The reason being that if you arnt already behind to a a pair, then he probably also had an ace in his hand, giving him only 3 outs. Also, if he isnt a total calling staion, you'll usually get another bet because he will either fire the river or pay off with a worse ace high.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you are showdown bound, I don't like the check in this kind of spot at all.

Even if you are behind to a medium pair to UTG, they are playing it rather weak and will most likely not put in two bets on the turn and will check to you for a 3rd time on the river and may very well pay off on a river you spike.

Also what your saying about an weaker ace is true that they will pay off the river if an ace hits, but most thinking players in the 50-100 game will most likely check-call an ace on the river since your hand is so obvious by the turn check. At the same time they will bet if they hit their pairs.

If you are showdown bound and UTG is not very tricky or aggressive, this turn is a must bet.

The Truth · #6 10-31-2005, 10:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why bet the river after checking the turn? Aren't you a dog to win on the river if you get called?

[/ QUOTE ]

not necessarily. Do you not think that the villian would not value bet most of his one pair hands here.

I really like the OP anylsis of the situation. I think i bet the turn too much in spots like this.

Steve Giufre · #7 10-31-2005, 10:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why bet the river after checking the turn? Aren't you a dog to win on the river if you get called?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think not betting the river after checking the turn would be kinda weak. I would miss a lot of value bets if I checked there as a default. Those guys call all sorts of worse ace highs in that spot, and they will almost always lead into on me on the river with a pair after I've checked the turn. I think the expert play with say 66 VS me there is to CR the river, but they rarely do it.

Glenn · #8 10-31-2005, 10:30 PM

"When the open raise comes from later position, or its just a guy who has a very big range, I think checking the turn is a very big mistake, since he can now have a lot of 6 out hands, 109, QJ, etc."

If you check the turn and he has a 6 out hand, it is not a mistake if he usually bluffs the river when he misses(which is often the case). It also depends of the frequency of his bluff turn c/r's and your response to them.

AceHigh · #9 10-31-2005, 10:42 PM

You don't think the utg raiser puts you on a fairly narrow range of hands at this point and can make a pretty good guess as to whether AJ or worse is good? Obviously it's totally dependent on you and your opponent so I couldn't know.

Steve Giufre · #10 10-31-2005, 10:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"When the open raise comes from later position, or its just a guy who has a very big range, I think checking the turn is a very big mistake, since he can now have a lot of 6 out hands, 109, QJ, etc."

If you check the turn and he has a 6 out hand, it is not a mistake if he usually bluffs the river when he misses(which is often the case). It also depends of the frequency of his bluff turn c/r's and your response to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I dont really disgree there are a million other variables to consider, and how likely he is to checkraise the has a lot to do with it. In the past I used to tell myself, I'm gonna check behind this turn because the board has some draws to it and this guy is capable of checkraise bluffing me on the turn. Then I thought about it, and decided that if he fairly likely to checkraise me with a worse hand, I may as well put the bet in and let him try it. Anyhow, I do agree that it can be fine to check in spots where he very well may have 6 outs, if he is very likely to fire into you on the river when he misses.