KQo against a PF 3-Bet

Grease · #1 11-23-2004, 07:52 PM

I really want to improve my KQ play, and I think that I played this one pretty sloppily. Is the PF raise ok? Is the flop as bad as I think it is? Thanks for helping me out.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button 3-bets, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

MoreWineII · #2 11-23-2004, 07:56 PM

Doesn't look bad to me at all.

I open-raise KQo from early position too.

You flopped top pair, good kicker, 2nd nut flush draw. I think that's worth a raise. Oops, gosh, reading is hard. Didn't notice it was a check-raise. Just bet out here.

Turn, ok.

River, good. I don't like chancing this being checked through.

J.R. · #3 11-23-2004, 08:00 PM

I don't get the point of the flop check-raise. Its way ahead or way behind and you probably don't fear a free card. Suppose you had AJ and the flop was Axx. Why not check-call, check-call and consider betting the river.

DataMiner · #4 11-23-2004, 08:05 PM

I always found that raising KQo in early position is bad at 3/6 and below (SSHE agrees). If you get re-raised, you're likely looking at AK/AKs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, or TT. Assuming you don't improve, you lose to all of these. If you hit your K, you're only beating 15 hands: QQ (3 hands), JJ (6 hands), or TT (6 hands) and losing to 21 hands: AK (12 hands), AA (6 hands), or KK (3 hands). If you hit your queen, you're currently beating AK, but you can still be beaten if he spikes his ace.

So, getting 3-bet PF is ugly. Given that you should _fold_ KQo to any PFR, raising KQo early isn't the wisest choice.

That said, you should bet out on the flop. Even if you're behind right now, you have up to nine outs to make the second-nut flush.

The turn check is totally correct as is the river bet.

Just...don't PFR KQo in early position. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

DataMiner · #5 11-23-2004, 08:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why not check-call, check-call and consider betting the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a totally valid alternative. If your opponent is quite aggressive and you believe he'll bet/call all the way down, let him do the betting for you. If you make the flush, bet. If he's passive once the flop comes, I'd still bet out on the flop.

MoreWineII · #6 11-23-2004, 08:14 PM

I haven't found being dominated with KQo to be a recurring problem. I almost always raise it from early position. I assumed this was pretty standard, is this a leak I didn't even know I had?

spamuell · #7 11-23-2004, 08:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I always found that raising KQo in early position is bad at 3/6 and below (SSHE agrees). If you get re-raised, you're likely looking at AK/AKs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, or TT. Assuming you don't improve, you lose to all of these. If you hit your K, you're only beating 15 hands: QQ (3 hands), JJ (6 hands), or TT (6 hands) and losing to 21 hands: AK (12 hands), AA (6 hands), or KK (3 hands). If you hit your queen, you're currently beating AK, but you can still be beaten if he spikes his ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes... but most of the time you don't get 3-bet.

[ QUOTE ]

So, getting 3-bet PF is ugly. Given that you should _fold_ KQo to any PFR, raising KQo early isn't the wisest choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure the reason you're wrong is called the "gap concept" but basically it's that when you raise, you have increased equity in that everyone might fold and no reason to believe anyone else has a very strong hand, whereas when facing a raise, you don't have these things.

MHarris · #8 11-23-2004, 08:31 PM

The flop checkraise is unnecessary, you're either way ahead or behind here. Any hand you're ahead of may slow down and/or fold the turn, while A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A, A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K, and KK have you in a bunch of trouble, and AK with no [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is ahead as well. I like going check/call, check/call, bet here.

Your PF raise is good here. Getting 3-bet sucks, but in return it gives you some valuable information that makes the play of your hand much easier.

pfkaok · #9 11-23-2004, 08:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Its way ahead or way behind and you probably don't fear a free card. Suppose you had AJ and the flop was Axx. Why not check-call, check-call and consider betting the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is so much of a way ahead/way behind is it??

I mean unless he's got AK, or AA with The A high flush draw, you're in pretty good shape here.(or your in some trouble if he's got KK, but not horrible) I like betting out here then slowing down if he raises... unless you hit the flush.

DataMiner · #10 11-23-2004, 08:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure the reason you're wrong is called the "gap concept" but basically it's that when you raise, you have increased equity in that everyone might fold and no reason to believe anyone else has a very strong hand, whereas when facing a raise, you don't have these things.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Gap Concept isn't nearly as profound in small stakes games.

There are at least half a dozen threads at 2+2 discussing whether KQo should be raised preflop. In SSHE, Malmuth suggests that we stop wasting our time on this particular debate and focus on postflop play. I agree.