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  #1  
Old 11-21-2005, 02:21 AM
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Default Is this \"correct call\" a mistake?

Started with 3 tables and 22 players in $20 buy in paying 4 spots. Blinds go up every 20 mins. Next level is 20/40 (not sure of time left).

Final table now with 8 left, my image is very tight (people would actually comment when I was in a hand). Blinds are t15/30. I am the biggest stack with $500 and haven't shown a single hand except for a double up in my unraised BB which hit a full house. My steals have gone uncontested.

Folded to me in the small blind. The BB is a fairly tightish player with 165 behind his t30 post. I am holding 82s. I've folded my SB to him before. I went for the steal and raised t85.

BB took some time counting his chips, and said something like "oh well..". Then went all-in, and it was t75 for me to call. Now I'm getting better than 4-1 on what's probably 60/40 and no worse than 4-1 if he has an overpair. My read is over pair unlikely based on his "hesitant" raise.

1. Do you call, knowing your a dog with "correct odds", or fold and stay among the chip leader and chalk it up to "getting caught"?

2. Would you have even tried to steal, and with what kind of bet?

Without thinking it through, I thought I could get away from 82s easily, but once the hand played, I of course realized what a pickle I got myself into.
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  #2  
Old 11-21-2005, 03:41 AM
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Default Re: Is this \"correct call\" a mistake?

1. I don't call with nearly 20% of my stack. Those 75 chips buy you another round of blinds.

2. Not a good spot to try and steal with rags. BB's chip stack just about puts him in a 'push with any two' mode. He knows your hand range is big here. If you assume he has a better hand, you're giving him good odds to try and double up with any two connectors, suiteds, or broadways. If you have to steal there, better to push and narrow his calling range.
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  #3  
Old 11-21-2005, 09:44 AM
Lottery Larry Lottery Larry is offline
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Default Re: Is this \"correct call\" a mistake?

Also, no one knows what you've been stealing with yet. You show this hand down, your stealing days are over.

Dump the hand, adjust to the fact that they KNOW you are stealing now (you folded to the all-in) and move on.
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  #4  
Old 11-21-2005, 10:34 AM
jojobinks jojobinks is offline
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Default Re: Is this \"correct call\" a mistake?

call in a shot. if you lose you're still an average stack (i'm guessing). if you win, and you have great pot odds here, you're looking to steamroll the table.

i don't like the steal attempt, but i hate not calling here.

edit:
agianst a range of 99+, AK, AQ, and AJs, you're only a 3:1 dog. CALL!
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  #5  
Old 11-21-2005, 12:48 PM
Solami17 Solami17 is offline
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Default Re: Is this \"correct call\" a mistake?

Next time, pay a bit more attention to the BBs stack. If he is a tightish player like you say, he is going to have to go all in or fold everytime. His stack wont allow him to call a raise of that magnitude. If you do want to steal, however, pick a better raising hand than 82
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  #6  
Old 11-21-2005, 01:31 PM
2+2 wannabe 2+2 wannabe is offline
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Default Re: Is this \"correct call\" a mistake?

not calling here getting 3:1 is absolutely terrible (even more so than the preflop raise)

like another poster said you have pot odds to call with any 2 here

p.s. preflop sucks
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  #7  
Old 11-21-2005, 07:11 PM
Lottery Larry Lottery Larry is offline
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Default Re: Is this \"correct call\" a mistake?

[ QUOTE ]
Also, no one knows what you've been stealing with yet. You show this hand down, your stealing days are over.

Dump the hand, adjust to the fact that they KNOW you are stealing now (you folded to the all-in) and move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

After looking at the stacks again, I might change my answer to a call, since your stealing strategy is probably blown anyway.

However, where did you get 4:1 vs. an overpair? I have that at over 7:1 when you don't share suits; 2.5:1 against an underpair; over 2:1 against two unsuited connectors; and 2:1 vs multi-gap high cards.

You probably should call based on pot odds, but you'll have to change your play once you show this hand down.
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  #8  
Old 11-22-2005, 09:33 AM
Padster Padster is offline
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Default Re: Is this \"correct call\" a mistake?

I don't think this was as bad as is being made out.

Given the blinds are still at T15/30 and you're already at the final table possibly suggests plenty of action, which would make the steal foolish. But assuming you had reason to think it would work it's not bad.

I don't think the bb was in any way committed to the hand so is only shoving with something he likes. He's not forced to get involved yet.

The one thing I'd suggest though is that you need to remember you're CL. You have a great table image and have the stack to scare as well. You'd like to protect that if you can. So you pf raise size is probably wrong. You dont need to raise to half the bb's stack even though that's only 3xbb. You have 3 options (4 incl fold) :

1) Raise 3xbb - pot committing yourself with outcomes of either knocking out a non scary (fairly tight) player for not a huge amount of chips but with the risk of bringing you down to a medium stack.

2) Call and fold to a raise greater than min raise. Weak tight but in line with your table image and no risk involved. You can even auto bet the flop at a chance to win the same chips your pf raise would have won.

3)Min raise. Normally not a great play but here it conveys the same message to the bb as your pot committing raise. If he thinks you're stealing he's still coming over the top. He's less likely to call for value as that extra bb hurts him due to his stack size. You can get away if he shoves. You can auto bet the flop and fold to a shove as you then wont be forced to call for odds. You can also protect your tight image by saying you had AK if you are forced to fold to a flop shove.

I think the min raise is the way to go myself. The other advantage is that, rather than looking weak it can look very strong, like it's tempting him to shove pre flop.

Although you're CL you only have 17 BB (soon to be 12 when the blinds increase) so you need to start muscling the table. You def need to make a move on his blind at this stage, and your tight image will disappear soon enough anyway if you are trying to win that is. So dont beat yourself up about the play. It was alright.
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