Am I playing K's like they are A's?

[Toyboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I can only remember 2 guys I've ever really been "afraid" of preflop with kings, one of them had stats like 5vp$ip/1pfr or something over 1500 hands and another 15/2 or something similar over ~1200 hands... I haven't used PT my entire "carreer" though but still I doubt they're common enough to have any real effect on your winrate over a few tens of thousand hands or more

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you'll hold KK and meet AA about once every 8.300 hands or so at 6max (1 in 221 hands you have KK and about 1 in 38 times one opponent holds AA).

Kings are about 18% against AA, so we lose around 64bb on each occurence (all-in preflop).

So losing 64bb every 8.300 hand is like 0.78 bb/100 (or 0.39 PTBB/100).

Would of course be nice to avoid it, but that would certainly mean folding KK incorrectly a couple of times.
So never folding KK preflop is not a major leak in anybodys game (as opposed to never calling all-in pf with KK which would be very wrong).

But there are times I'll do it myself (or rather wish I was able to do it):
13/2 rock raises to 4BB, i re-raise to 12BB, rock pushes, stacks 100BB.

I cannot recall having been shown QQ here at 100NL. But I've certainly seen AA.

What it all boils down to I guess is: is AA more than 60% likely or so (depending on how much is already in the pot)? If yes you fold, but this will obviously be the case only against the rockiest of rocks (who do exist).

[Dommer]

I fold kk often at full ring, if I have a good read and a tight player 3 bets me pre-flop hard its 90%+ AA and I can find better spots to get my money in. Or if they are just a super rock and only raise 1% its not that hard either, just rare situations like that. You don't want to be scared of losing to AA though, you just have to be 90% sure they have aces and can back that up with logic/reads. Might fold KK once a month if that, although the last session I had I folded it twice (got shown AA both times as well, saved 160$ assuming I didn't suck out).

If I have any doubts or if there is some reason to suspect I'm ahead even if the guy is tight I don't fold, folding the best hand is a much bigger mistake than calling. At 6 max your play is looser and so is everyone elses so it's going to be much harder to get a solid read to be able to fold.

Luckily if you never folded KK pre-flop in 100 bb stack situations you wouldn't be making a mistake and KK would still be a very profitable hand, so it's not something to worry about I think.

I'd more focus on creating situations where you will force them into mistakes with your KK the times you have them beat.

[Mike Cuneo]

[ QUOTE ]
i am button and dealt kk. MP (average stack) raises, i reraise, he pushes, i call. he sets his pocket Q's on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this Q didn't come on the river would you still make this post?

[ QUOTE ]
oh well, i made the right move.

[/ QUOTE ]

You did, but are you being too results oriented?

[ QUOTE ]
a few hands later, i am once again dealt kk in late position. MP raises, i reraise, he pushes, i call, he shows AA and i feel like a donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it because you ran into AA or because of the river Q?

[ QUOTE ]
how often do you fold KK preflop to an average stack, heads up?

[/ QUOTE ]

To an average stack, heads up? Never. The fact is that you are only out against AA a very small amount of the time and the range of hands for most people pushing is a great deal wider than JUST AA. It could mean KK or QQ or even AK. How would you feel if someone raised, you reraised with kings and they pushed, you folded confidently and they showed you KK or QQ? You would be giving money away in either situation. Plus, no one has mentioned that, while it is highly unfavorable, you still can draw out against AA 20% or so of the time. So even if you make this mistake you can win the hand. It's not a big leak at all to get it all in PF with KK, simply because most of the time you are ahead or tied.

[FlyingStart]

I think this is highly dependant on where you play, what stakes and the player you're against obviously.

Three months ago at pokerroom 100NL, no way in hell I would lay down KK to threebet. Today at Stars 100NL or 200NL, yes a fair percentage of the time versus a reasonably solid opponent

[ QUOTE ]
If this Q didn't come on the river would you still make this post?



You did, but are you being too results oriented?



Is it because you ran into AA or because of the river Q?



[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i think you missed the point of the post. i'm in no way complaining about a bad beat or two. i'm simply saying that at 100nl, there are several hands villain may be playing with a re reraise all in. they could be playing AA, KK, AK, QQ, JJ, etc. at this level, so i was wondering if that fact would justify a call.

[WhoIam]

My experience has been that for every time you run into aces, there are three or four times you run into QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, or some idiotic bluff. You do start to question your own donkishness when you run into aces twice in one day or a couple times in one week, but that's just variance.

[ QUOTE ]


Correct me if I'm wrong, but you'll hold KK and meet AA about once every 8.300 hands or so at 6max (1 in 221 hands you have KK and about 1 in 38 times one opponent holds AA).



[/ QUOTE ]

you face AA once in every 8.3 hands you have KK? that's not right. opponent holds AA against your KK only about 3 or 4% of the time.

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]

you face AA once in every 8.3 hands you have KK? that's not right. opponent holds AA against your KK only about 3 or 4% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

yo use your head he means 1 in 8300

oh i see. pretty dumb post by me...