NYC poker raid?

[Voltron87]

Really good post iceman, thanks.

One thing sort of contradictory: first " It is also NOT illegal to refuse to identify yourself to a police officer.
" So there's nothing wrong with not identifying yourself or having ID.

then: "They DO have the right to determine who you are if you cant prove it or wont tell them, which means you will be handcuffed and taken to wherever "

So if you can't confirm your identity they take you in? What is the point of it not being illegal in the first sentence? Or does that just mean you aren't breaking any law not identifying yourself, but they will still take you in, you just didn't make it worse by not saying your name?

[RydenStoompala]

I just finished reading the story in the NY Times. This is a serious crime problem for the NYPD? I would guess they wanted a cut, didn't get it, so they closed the joints? Sounds like they were nice clubs.

[satelliter]

The New York State Constitution prohibits "promotion of gambling". The first question is whether poker is gambling. To my knowledge, California has said no-- New York has never addressed the issue. New York has said Backgammon, pinball, and pool are not gambling (we will be having a backgammon tournament soon) because they are predominantly games of skill.

I don't know to what extent the term "promotion" has been defined in New York. Is it having a cardroom? Advertising the room? Profiting from the room?

I believe there was a case which held that a typical home game was not illegal. When judges write opinions they limit them as much as possible to the facts of the case, since the legislature is supposed to "make" the law. That is why it's gray in New York. I think that other states have drawn the distinction between profiting from the game or not.

Certain "vices" like alcohol and tobacco sales are freely allowed but their "promotion" (advertising) is not (these examples are federally regulated). Others like strip clubs and porn shops are allowed but zoned and regulated. Still others (pot possession, prostitution) are clearly illegal but have traditionally been left alone in New York City, if done discreetly.

Poker is not yet in any of these categories and those who assume it's illegal are jumping the gun. As the police officer pointed out, just because they bring you in doesn't mean you've violated any law.

The probable reason no one has tested the law is that it's expensive and risky. The penalty is just about always reduced to a fine, anyway. Also, if poker is removed from the abyss mom and pop stores like Satellite will have a hard time competing with the Donald. We will try, though. In the meantime, come play backgammon and pool... and anyone need some tropical fish?

[jnalpak]

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...and anyone need some tropical fish?

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oh that poor eel.

I would play gammon if you stopped kicking my ass everytime [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[other1]

I think probably cause is the key here. They have probable cause to suspect you of illegal activity if you are at an illegal gambling house. If you are asked for id an refuse then they have probably cause to believe you are a criminial and therefore can detain you.

The laws exist so that we don't turn in to a police state where you can just be walking down the street and asked for your papers like in the 40s in Europe. One you actually give the police a reason to suspect you of something you lose some of your liberties.

[satelliter]

My point is that just because the police or DA office calls it an illegal gambling house does not make it one. They do not have the last word on the law.

[other1]

That's true. You have every right to sit in a cell awaiting a trial to determine whether or not the place is illegal.

I'm on your side. The laws are stupid. Who is being hurt here? Nobody. However, I think you are kidding yourself if you think you can continue to operate indefinitely in such a grey area.

[cardshark]

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New York Times very fair. We may open for free play and sell cookies and soda.

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This is where technicalities get in the way of common sense. Many people will assume that it would be OK to sell cookies while running a poker game. In reality there is no grey area in the NY State Penal Law, and unfortunately this would be the wrong assumption to make.

Article 225 of the NYS Penal Law deals with "Gambling Offenses". (The entire article can be found by Googling).

Basically, in plain English, it boils down to this. If you sell cookies (or anything) while hosting a poker game, you are "profiting from a gambling activity" according to NYS law. In fact, it makes no difference if you sell cookies, rake the pot, or charge a time fee. It also makes no difference if you decide to charge an advanced membership fee and later let the players come and play. Same goes with dealers accepting tips. In all those instances you would be "profiting from a gambling activity"

Furthermore, it makes no difference if you get paid in cash, poker chips, or candy bars. As soon as you accept "something of value" you are "profiting from gambling".

There is another common misconception. Most people believe that it is not illegal to play poker in NY State, as a player. This is true, but there's more to it. It is not illegal to play poker as a player, because there are no legal sanctions against it, but it is unlawful to do so, because there is no law that permits such activity. Is that a contradiction, or what? Hey, I don't write the laws, I am just making a post about this.

Section 225.00, subsection 12, of the NYS Penal Law states:

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12. "Unlawful" means not specifically authorized by law.

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So, in plain English this means that you cannot be charged with anything if you play poker as a "player". The problem is that people typically don't know what a "player" actually is, under NYS Penal Law, because they have never heard of subsections 3 and 4, of Section 225.00, of the NY State Penal Law. Why would they? Those two subsections define what is a "player" and what it means to "advance a gambling activity", according to the NYS Penal Law (which happens to be the Law that will throw you in jail, in NYS).

[ QUOTE ]
3. "Player" means a person who engages in any form of gambling solely as a contestant or bettor, without receiving or becoming entitled to receive any profit therefrom other than personal gambling winnings, and without otherwise rendering any material assistance to the establishment, conduct or operation of the particular gambling activity. A person who gambles at a social game of chance on equal terms with the other participants therein does not otherwise render material assistance to the establishment, conduct or operation thereof by performing, without fee or remuneration, acts directed toward the arrangement or facilitation of the game, such as inviting persons to play, permitting the use of premises therefor and supplying cards or other equipment used therein. A person who engages in "bookmaking", as defined in this section is not a "player."


4. "Advance gambling activity." A person "advances gambling activity" when, acting other than as a player, he engages in conduct which materially aids any form of gambling activity. Such conduct includes but is not limited to conduct directed toward the creation or establishment of the particular game, contest, scheme, device or activity involved, toward the acquisition or maintenance of premises, paraphernalia, equipment or apparatus therefor, toward the solicitation or inducement of persons to participate therein, toward the actual conduct of the playing phases thereof, toward the arrangement of any of its financial or recording phases, or toward any other phase of its operation. One advances gambling activity when, having substantial proprietary or other authoritative control over premises being used with his knowledge for purposes of gambling activity, he permits such to occur or continue or makes no effort to prevent its occurrence or continuation.

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Now in plain English:

You cannot be convicted of anything if you get together with friends and spontaneously decide to play poker, as long as you are one of the players and you are not "profiting from the gambling activity" by charging any fees in any shape or form. However, if you post a listing on Craig's List and invite people over to play poker, in your own home, you are "Advancing a Gambling Activity", and you are no longer considered a "player", even if you sit in on the game.

A person may be charged with "Promoting gambling in the second degree" when he "knowingly advances or profits from unlawful gambling activity." (Note the use of the word "or", not the word "and"). "Promoting gambling in the second degree" is a class A misdemeanor, which may carry up to one year in prison.

So, you may invite some buddies over for poker (not necessarily strangers through Craig's List) and you may be faced with a charge that carries up to one year. Nice, he!

[satelliter]

With probable cause to suspect you, they can get a warrant from a judge. They can not search or seize (detain) you unreasonably, which usually means they must observe you in an illegal act, or have some reasonable suspicion and can't wait to get a warrant. This is not by law but by constitutional right. I'm sure the clubs were raided upon execution of a warrant.

Historically, laws rarely get changed without someone sitting in a cell. I probably would not sit in jail for the right to hold poker games. (My backgammon skills would probably not help me survive) I do applaud someone who will sit in jail for the right not to have to carry ID, but I believe it's a losing battle and things will soon be worse than 1940's Europe.

Clearly, poker will not be a gray area much longer, although it has been for 100 years in New York. I will continue to follow the letter of the law as much as I can, leaning towards individual liberty where the law is gray.
We just want to play cards for a few bucks, right?

[satelliter]

Thanks. I hadn't seen that law. It seems the only question is whether poker is gambling under NYS law.