30-60, top and bottom, 3 to a wheel, button

[Phat Mack]

20-40 limit O8, half killed to 30-60. Early June at the Bellagio.

This is another hand that I misplayed on all streets. I'm posting it because it reminds me of some recent threads: the playing-three-to-a-wheel thread, a top-and-bottom 2pr thread, and the 9942ss thread. (I was surprised by the number of posters who would have folded 9942ss on the button.)

SB plays 95% of her hands, and bets/raises the flop with over 50% of them. Slightly tilted.

BB plays +/- 50% of his hands. Is busy hitting on SB.

EP+2 (Toughie). I've only been at this table for a couple of rounds, but I've seen him make what I consider to be an expert play with a non-nut low. The other players at the table seem to respect him.

MP considers himself a player, but I've seen no evidence of it. He has a pad of paper and a large sheaf of xeroxes with which he is tracking his sports bets. I've played with him for a couple of hours at a table that has recently broken.

Cutoff is the killer, has last action, and is on massive Entitlement Tilt. He has been showing down AA23 and A234, among many other hands, and hasn't dragged a cent with them.

Toughie calls; MP calls; I call on the button with Qh 5c4c3h.

Normally, if I play on the button, I raise on the button, but here I don't. I want everyone seeing the flop and this is Vegas with its population of pre-flop folders. I consider my hand a little better than a random one, but playable on the button because of its three wheel cards and two suits. I think its roughly equal to 9942ss, but may play a little more strongly. I like it here because I think we will be six-handed to the flop and I have position on Toughie. I have a plan in the back of my mind to flop an A or a 2, have Toughie make a play at the table, and then make a play at Toughie. This is a dangerous plan, but it has managed to flit across my mind.

SB completes; BB completes; Killer raises. (I have no idea why I didn't see this coming.) I feel confident that everyone is coming along and call. SB folds (!); BB folds (!!); Toughie calls; MP calls.

Four of us see a flop of Qd Tc 5h. Toughie bets; MP raises; Killer calls. I think Toughie has either a big wrap or is betting a crumby flop. MP could be reading Toughie, but I think it more likely that he has a Q with an A and is value betting. No idea what Killer has. I have top and bottom, runner-runner flush draw, and a low draw not worth having. In hindsight, I think it's a raise or fold situation. I call.

Turn is a (Qd Tc 5h) 2h. Toughie checks; MP bets; Killer calls. Things are getting interesting: I'm open-ended with a flush draw and an unprotected low draw. I call; Toughie calls.

River is (Qd Tc 5h) 2h Ad. Toughie thinks and thinks. I don't believe he has hit a big wrap. I send him psychic messages to bet. He thinks some more and checks; MP checks; Killer checks; I bet; fold; call; call.

I show my wheel; MP shows TT74; Killer mucks.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
Cutoff is the killer, has last action...

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this some sort of special Bellagio or Vegas rule? In every kill or half-kill game I've ever sat in, the killer does not have last action... his forced bet is identical to the situation that he posted a blind as a newcomer to the game. Therefore, from the CO, the killer would not have a chance to raise after the action gets by him (ie, he would check, button calls, blinds complete, then the flop comes).

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cutoff is the killer, has last action...

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this some sort of special Bellagio or Vegas rule? In every kill or half-kill game I've ever sat in, the killer does not have last action... his forced bet is identical to the situation that he posted a blind as a newcomer to the game. Therefore, from the CO, the killer would not have a chance to raise after the action gets by him (ie, he would check, button calls, blinds complete, then the flop comes).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I first played kills in NL games where kills were straddles or sleeps that couldn't be re-straddled, and had last action unless there was a raise before them. Since I first came across kills in limit games, I think it's 70-30 as to whether they have last action or not. It seems to me that many California games don't give the killer last action, but someone more experience with Cal games might correct me on that.

[Phat Mack]

Just got a call from an irate reader saying that the killer doesn't get last action at the Bellagio, so this hand must have been somewere else. I'm trying to think of another room that was spreading O8 higher than 10-20, and nothing comes to mind.

[Buzz]

Hi Mack - Interesting hand.

[ QUOTE ]
I think its roughly equal to 9942ss,

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I agree 345Qd and 2499d are very, very close in overall pre-flop value.

[ QUOTE ]
but may play a little more strongly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I'd find 345Qd tougher to play than 2499d.Here’s why:

<ul type="square">The biggest contributor to high wins for 345Qd is the queen flush - but the queen flush loses more than it wins, and if you don’t see the king and/or the ace on the board, it's very difficult to tell where you stand because someone with the king flush is probably treading lightly (because of a possible ace flush). At least a king flush figures to win about twice as often as it loses to an ace flush. But a queen flush figures to lose to a higher flush more often than it wins.

The nine boat is the biggest contributor to high wins for 2499d. Although a nine boat will often lose to a higher boat, at least when the board has a nine and a pair, the hand wins more often than it loses. Plus you can more easily see whether you have a winner or a loser. If the board pairs below (or on!) nines, barring quads from an opponent, you'll usually have a winner - and you can often tell when you don't. If the board pairs above nines and you make an underboat, although you will sometimes win, playing the underboat is rather like playing the queen flush. But at least the board figures to pair below nines more often than above nines.[/list]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a dangerous plan, but it has managed to flit across my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. I've never even tried to control what I think. All kinds of stray thoughts flicker through my brain all the time, and there seems always a tune playing in the background. Doesn't bother me - that's just the way it is.

But I do agree that if you play 345X for low , you had better see an ace or a deuce on the flop. (Note that I'm not advocating playing 345H, although I'd probably play that particular hand, 345Qd, from the button too)

[ QUOTE ]
I send him psychic messages to bet. He thinks some more and checks

[/ QUOTE ]

Controlling someone with psychic messages doesn't work well for me either.

Regards,

Buzz

[Phat Mack]

Hey Buzz,

[ QUOTE ]
Really? I'd find 345Qd tougher to play than 2499d

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand and agree with what you are saying, but am looking at the hands from a different perspective. I think there are more flops that will allow the Q543ds to withstand some heat while on the button. (I'm not looking to flop two of my Q's suit, but one would be nice.) If I can get caught up with my sleep, I'll attempt to quantify this.

[ QUOTE ]
I've never even tried to control what I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me neither.

[ QUOTE ]
All kinds of stray thoughts flicker through my brain all the time

[/ QUOTE ]

Me, too; these thoughts are my chief source of entertainment. Learning which of these thoughts to publicize, and which to keep private was one of the great struggles of my youth.

[ QUOTE ]
and there seems always a tune playing in the background.

[/ QUOTE ]

You too, huh.

The reason I called the thought dangerous was because I believe that it is best to play opportunistically, rather than trying to make a hand fit into a preconceived scenario. If a hand almost fits a flop, I may go ahead and try to shoehorn it in.

[ QUOTE ]
Controlling someone with psychic messages doesn't work well for me either.

[/ QUOTE ]

What we witnessed here was the triumph of hope over experience.

Regards,

Mack

[jayheaps]

fold preflop.

[Jim Morgan]

I think hands like Q543ss and 9942ss are VERY marginal holdings. Maybe they can theoretically be worth playing, but they are going to be tough play and (especially with 9924) they will be expensive when they lose.

Maybe I just haven't been catching enough flops lately, but it seems really hard to LIKE a flop for Q543ss. The most obvious flops you want include an Ace and a deuce or a flush draw including the Ace. Losing a Q high flush draw to a K is much less likely than losing a K high flush to an Ace because so many more players will fold the K high flush pre-flop or even fold it post flop to a flop like Ad5h7n.
(depending on their skill level)

In fact, it is just this kind of flop that seems to be the most common way to get involved with the Q543ss hand. you have all kinds of pieces, but the only ones that are really safe are the deuces. If you call down to the river and miss, you will be guessing to fold or call your 3rd nut low.
No matter how good you are, you WILL guess this wrong a fair amount of the time.

By the way, I feel pretty much the same about hands like Q542ss. I'd much rather have a 4th working low card than a suited queen. Hands like 5543 and 5542 have a similar sort of feel to them, The low set problems are somewhat compensated for by the blocking ability of the pair (by this I mean that when I flop something like A23, I am less likely to be up against another whee. To be honest, I have not yet decided if these hands are playable. I never call raises with them (except maybe in big blind) and I always call my small (unraised) blind with them.


Personally, I tend to much Q543ss and Q542ss unless I am in a blind. Maybe I am sacrificing a sliver of value, but I am keeping myself out of some very delicate situations.

About 9924ss. I really don't like this hand. When I play sets I want TOP set and fewer than 2 low cards on the flop.
And this is impossible to do with this hand unless you get something magical like 933. Sure, I will play a board of
J94, but I don't WANT to spend good money to wind up trying to survive the nasty things that can happen to middle set. Hell.... surviving with top set is tough enough. I would MUCH prefer to have at least JJ24 than 9942ss. I also think having 32 instead of 24 makes a big difference, though I am still not so sure the it is enough. In fact, I might even prefer 8823 to 9923 since now my set out helps my low out.

Jim

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
About 9924ss. I really don't like this hand. When I play sets I want TOP set and fewer than 2 low cards on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing about 9942ss is that you can flop a 9 and two low cards, then get real brave with your low--brave enough to knock out 2nd and 3rd nut low draws. Then if the nut low gets dinked or doesn't show up, youre in a good situation.

I only like these hands with position. If I get a free ride with them from the blinds, I ditch them at the first opportunity unless I hit a monster flop.

On the hand I posted above, I foolishly thought I had a made hand with some interesting re-draws. I didn't; I was just chasing. Chasing is the way to lose money with these hands, but if you're not a chaser, then they shouldn't cost you much.

[Wintermute]

i'M DO HIGH! NOTHING CAN HUST ME NOW


what about KFR

no we've been ther to many time

no we've been there too much. I want... the perfect food.