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#11
11-08-2005, 05:26 PM
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Re: Give me a better line
[ QUOTE ]
Gives villain a chance to bet with AK or a worse made hand. [/ QUOTE ] You also run the risk of him checking behind with his club draw, which would be a much bigger mistake than making him fold AK, IMO. 
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#12
11-08-2005, 05:27 PM
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Re: Give me a better line
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Gives villain a chance to bet with AK or a worse made hand. [/ QUOTE ] Is it even likely at all for villain to have AK? I'm mucking AKs to a 3-bet... [/ QUOTE ] Maybe villain isn't as good as you are? If villain is good, he can't be thinking of playing pairs for set value, as Hero did a good job of cutting down the odds for villain to flop a set. If villain made it to the flop with AK/JJ/QQ/worse pair - he must think his hand is best (or he can steal) on this tame flop. I believe we can reinforce villain's thoughts by checking instead of pushing and giving him the tough decision. FWIW I think villain has AA a big percentage of the time here, so IMO we need to maximize the return on non-AA holdings. I believe check raising does this. KoW
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#13
11-08-2005, 05:27 PM
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Re: Give me a better line
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Gives villain a chance to bet with AK or a worse made hand. [/ QUOTE ] You also run the risk of him checking behind with his club draw, which would be a much bigger mistake than making him fold AK, IMO. [/ QUOTE ] What club draw do you think he's reraising with preflop?
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#14
11-08-2005, 05:40 PM
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Re: Give me a better line
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Gives villain a chance to bet with AK or a worse made hand. [/ QUOTE ] You also run the risk of him checking behind with his club draw, which would be a much bigger mistake than making him fold AK, IMO. [/ QUOTE ] What club draw do you think he's reraising with preflop? [/ QUOTE ] Hmmm...good question. I don't play NL400, so my thinking may not apply to that game. However against an unknown on the NL100's I play on, the re-raise doesn't necessarily mean a much stronger hand than an open-raise does. Now if villain was a known TAG, that'd be different, or if this was a 3 or 4-bet. But against an unknown I'm still giving him a somewhat wide range of possible hands here, including any 2 suited broadway or an Ax [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. But like I said, this may not apply at NL400. And maybe I'm just being paranoid hehe.
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#15
11-08-2005, 05:47 PM
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Re: Give me a better line
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Gives villain a chance to bet with AK or a worse made hand. [/ QUOTE ] You also run the risk of him checking behind with his club draw, which would be a much bigger mistake than making him fold AK, IMO. [/ QUOTE ] What club draw do you think he's reraising with preflop? [/ QUOTE ] Hmmm...good question. I don't play NL400, so my thinking may not apply to that game. However against an unknown on the NL100's I play on, the re-raise doesn't necessarily mean a much stronger hand than an open-raise does. Now if villain was a known TAG, that'd be different, or if this was a 3 or 4-bet. But against an unknown I'm still giving him a somewhat wide range of possible hands here, including any 2 suited broadway or an Ax [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. But like I said, this may not apply at NL400. And maybe I'm just being paranoid hehe. [/ QUOTE ] You realize that the wider the range you give, the more a check becomes better, right? KoW
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#16
11-08-2005, 07:04 PM
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Re: Give me a better line
[ QUOTE ]
You realize that the wider the range you give, the more a check becomes better, right? [/ QUOTE ] How so? Even with a wider ranger there's not much out there that's got hero beat. However a wider range does give more hands that could possibly draw out on us, making the risk of the flop getting checked through that much more dangerous. And like I said, maybe I'm just paranoid. But I really hate taking the risk of giving a free card when there's a draw on board, even if it's not in our estimated range of villain's possible hands - especially with a hand as vulnerable as an overpair.
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#17
11-08-2005, 07:33 PM
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Re: Give me a better line
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You realize that the wider the range you give, the more a check becomes better, right? [/ QUOTE ] How so? Even with a wider ranger there's not much out there that's got hero beat. However a wider range does give more hands that could possibly draw out on us, making the risk of the flop getting checked through that much more dangerous. And like I said, maybe I'm just paranoid. But I really hate taking the risk of giving a free card when there's a draw on board, even if it's not in our estimated range of villain's possible hands - especially with a hand as vulnerable as an overpair. [/ QUOTE ] You are paranoid. Why is letting Villain check through on a fairly uncoordinated board, with only the unlikely chance he has a club draw dangerous? Most likely he has a 2-outer. You are giving him a chance to bet a weaker hand with very few turn cards that can hurt you. Pushing on the flop folds out hands that might pay you off if given the chance to bet first / semi-bluff. As you yourself pointed out - there are very few hands Hero is behind. This isn't a "vulnerable" overpair situation - this is awesome - unless he has Aces...
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#18
11-08-2005, 09:28 PM
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Re: Give me a better line
I check and let him bet. Given how much money went in pre-flop, you are putting everything else in eventually on this flop. You are only behind TT and AA . . . if he has one of these, so be it.
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#19
11-08-2005, 09:39 PM
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Re: Give me a better line
OK yes I felt I probably should have checked the flop and let him bet QQ or bluff AK. If he holds AA I am perfectly willing to go broke here. The reasons I opened pushed were that I had been betting pretty aggressively before this and was hoping my bet looked like an overagressive bluff with missed AK rather than a value bet from AA or KK, and also (I am sad to say I'd did let this creep into my thinking) that I have been running so dreadfully awful for the two weeks that I felt that if I checked he would take the free card and spike a J or Q.
The problem that I have with these type hands is that I feel the 3-bet preflop pretty much broadcasts that I am holding AA or KK and allows decent opponents to play nearly perfectly after the flop against. Being as it is that I am out of position I feel the 3-bet is neccesary so as to make him make a mistake on the flop and kill all odds to set or outdraw, it is just that now being out of position against an opponent who can narrow me down to a very small range of hands makes it tough to get the money in with the best of it. I do think that checking the flop would look weaker than a push, I just got caught in a moment of speeding and was unable to properly switch gears. Anyway, he let his timer run down, and folded.
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#20
11-08-2005, 09:41 PM
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Re: Give me a better line
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] c/r a-i [/ QUOTE ] With hero being short-stacked in relation to the pot, would this actually accomplish anything that open-pushing wouldn't do? [/ QUOTE ] Gives villain a chance to bet with AK or a worse made hand. [/ QUOTE ] or allows villian to check ak off or aq club and draw for free. with him being short stacked if hes going to draw its better to just put it in on the flop then have him bet it for you. IMO
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