WinHoldem cheaters foiled

[HesseJam]

Your positive?

That's fcking unreal. So, if five guys on different comps own that piece of sht they could collude even more effectively?

I just read a couple of posts in the WH Forum. These guys show no sign of remorse or guilt. "Just don't get caught" is the standard answer there.

[Rah]

I suggest all of us 2+2ers send a massive request to Party that all accounts that have been caught using WH should be closed down immediately.
It's nice that Party is trying to stop WH, but wtf - why are they only warning them?? People who make duplicate accounts are banned, but people running bots are only warned? What kind of sick system is that? [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[crockett]

Lovely, just another post proving how ignorant I am. I hand no idea "WH" existed.

I have a few thoughts. This stuff could seriously reck internet Poker. They are going to get better and better at what they do. From the little bit I read, it looks like this is definately in the development stage and it is highly unlikely large numbers are sucessfully using this at the levels "most" of us play 2/4+. On the other hand, they will only improve and of course it is only a matter of time before 1+1=2 (no pun intended) and two sucessfull coders get together, network their machines and now can easily collute with one another. Now your playing TWO bots working TOGETHER.

Everyone is jumping up and down patting each other on the back saying "yeah...Party cracked them...blah..blah" but if you visit the WH website it appears that the ones with half a brain were one step ahead of Party and use a version or seperate software "winPP" to make WH appear invisible. At least this is what I gather from the little I read. So in a couple of days/weeks after everyone gets with the program they will be right back in business.

O.K. everything I just said above seems very "doomsday" but the one thing that always brings me peace of mind is that WH is clearly some form of a scam. In my life experience scams NEVER work. Yes some are sucessfull for a time period but it seems like in the end better judgement always wins out and a scam is eventually shut down, defeated, rendered useless, etc.

Finally, the one thing that does bother me is what effects me directly and that is the use of PokerTracker. I'm completely aware that we are talking about to different "types" of edges but let's face it, PokerTracker is being used more and more as a "realtime" data collector to give a player an edge. For the sake of the discussion I'm aware that PT isn't officially realtime but the lag is minor when using it with automatic hand updates.

To me the ethics seems clear. PT is fine, WH is not. But I can understand an arguement coming from the casual player who says "I play Poker for entertainment, just like at the Casino, I don't expect to be up against a robot BUT I also don't expect to be up against some guy using a computer to track every single move I make and have that data fed back to him while he's playing."

Even though I use PT I sympathize with this arguement and sometimes think "why can't HE (Internet or live) just be a gambling game of thinking person vs. other thinking persons and the only advangtage one would have is their own personal wits.

If this robot movement continues and big Poker sites become more and more aggressive to curtail "advantages" it could place a data mining software in jeopardy as well.

In fact, I'll bet every last dollar I have, that this is being and has been discussed among the people who make decisions at a large site such as Party.

[BradleyT]

If two losing bots collude do they suddenly become winning bots? If you look through their forums most of the players are still losing money with their bots.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
It is a bot that you can program to play for you. Low bb/100, but you can play 20 tables at a time, all the time. Basically it's cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

do we know if winholdem actually wins?

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
it could place data mining software in jeopardy as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Party was so concerned about data mining that they recently added the feature that writes hand history to disk as you play (or observe). Basically, they added a feature to help data miners. I severely doubt pokertracker is a concern of theirs.

[crockett]

I covered this in my post. To assume human minds won't improve a product is foolish. They will continue to get better. Chess computers can now beat anyone in the world with the exception of a handful of people.

I don't know if this is possible in Poker but I lean towards believing it is and betting that they can at least make it very very hard on the "above average player".

My post was more concerned about the future not the present.

[theghost]

Serves you right, scumbag.

I hope party figures out how to find these cheats even if they are using the winpp antidetection method - then the emails say "you've been warned, bye bye bankroll."

[crockett]

I must have worded it poorly. My apologizes. I didn't mean to imply that PT was a concern of theirs at this moment. Party will do ONLY what the money dictates. My concern was wether or not Party (or other sites for that matter) will face pressure from the "masses" to take away any and all advantages. The money will define the word "advantages."

The next time you walk into a Casino just stop for one second and turn around in a full circle. Rememeber your in the minority, that sea of people would definately be offended if they knew they were competing in a game and you were using a computer to mine data of their actions. Some would be so offended that they wouldn't want to go to that Casino anymore. So, what would the Casino do? Yup, make it really hard on you and invite the masses back to their new and improved Casino. The masses has more money than you and the Casino will follow the money.

Anyways, like I said this all sounds doomsday, but I'm also a realist, I'm sure PT is here to stay for at least awhile but I do believe if this "botting" becomes prevelant that it can definately effect my lifestyle and many others who spend time reading these forums.

[moondogg]

[ QUOTE ]
I covered this in my post. To assume human minds won't improve a product is foolish. They will continue to get better. Chess computers can now beat anyone in the world with the exception of a handful of people.

I don't know if this is possible in Poker but I lean towards believing it is and betting that they can at least make it very very hard on the "above average player".

My post was more concerned about the future not the present.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, someone can build a better mousetrap, but this WinHoldem moron is not going to be the one to do it.

The general consensus is that his bot software has a deeply flawed design, and to the point where it is not possible to program it to play well. It's like teaching a blind man to paint.