a 150 hand i forgot about

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand takes place against Paul, who is an aggressive player but one who is young and unafraid to lay down when he thinks he is beat. Since I have been at the table, he hasn't lost a showdown(even when putting in action on previous streets). He has been stealing very aggressively and isn't afraid to make a move at the turn.

Paul open raises the button and I call with Ks9h in the BB.

The flop is 8sTs3d. I check-raise, he calls.

The turn is a Jh. I bet, he raises, I three-bet, he pauses and grimaces and calls.

The river is a 4, I bet.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

my thought process:

meh, good, great.

Barron

[NLSoldier]

based on his grimace it seems like he probably has something like QT for a pair and a gutshot. I hope you got him to muck it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ggbman]

Why is the bet meh? Can he really check after he c/r'ed the flop against this opponent?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is the bet meh? Can he really check after he c/r'ed the flop against this opponent?

[/ QUOTE ]

you misread my post gabe.

i assume james understands but i'll explain it.

at first glance, the hand, as a whole is meh. he's likely putting in a lot of money trying to increase fold equity.

but then it looks good. it turns into a good play because of the sensitivity of the fold equity function of THIS particular player as it relates to his turn raise.

then it looks great. its so likely that the above two analyses understate this individual player's ability to fold for each additional bet.

i liked it more the 3rd time than the 2nd time and the 2nd time more than the first time.

thus, meh, good, great.

Barron

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
based on his grimace it seems like he probably has something like QT for a pair and a gutshot. I hope you got him to muck it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if he didn't Paul will now be calling him down with bottom pair for the rest of his natural life...

lf

[ggbman]

ah, i thought meh was the turn bet, good was the turn 3 bet, and great was the river bet. Seemed odd... This is why i should expressly keep my activites to playing mid-stakes poker. I am actually decent at it and can't [censored] it up.

[willie24]

[ QUOTE ]
would you showdown an unimproved 8, A9, or a ten against an opponent who so far has not gotten out of line?

[/ QUOTE ]

i would rarely raise the turn with an 8 or a9 against a tight opponent who c/r the flop. if i did with a T, yeah i would probably fold to a turn 3bet. if i had a pair and draw i would probably call down.

i just dont think he has a T and folds it enough for you to be getting anything out of this.

bluffing the river is slightly better because hes more likely to believe it- because you can't be semi-bluffing. but it still probably sucks.

i think its much easier to beat this type of opponent with value bets and by inducing bluffs than by trying to out-bluff him.

[mike l.]

that grimace means aw shucks i have to pay you off even though i think im beat.

anyway i hate this hand. that T and 8 are too playing zone to make the play you make on the flop. the J just makes things worse even though it gives you a nice draw. this hand is a mess, the sort of mess i used to get myself into all the time, oftentimes with good results i should note. purging hands like this from your game can only help.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
that grimace means aw shucks i have to pay you off even though i think im beat.

anyway i hate this hand. that T and 8 are too playing zone to make the play you make on the flop. the J just makes things worse even though it gives you a nice draw. this hand is a mess, the sort of mess i used to get myself into all the time, oftentimes with good results i should note. purging hands like this from your game can only help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, I thought you'd like it of all people. Online this play is a lot less valid, but surely plays like this work live in relatively tight games, no? From my experience last week there was far less paying off than high limit online games and far more "tough folds," sometimes face up. I do wonder if a hand like this has a place in my arsenal even if it's done 1/1000 of the time - and I think that it does. The value of getting called down and being unapolagetic about the play can go miles if you are going to play with this particular player(and the rest of the people at the table) for an extended period of time.
-James

EDIT: I should point out that of all streets, the flop is the one I like the least in spite of my strong backdoor draws.

[mike l.]

"This is a once in a while line"

then why not 3 bet preflop and get things started off right?