20 40 turn question

Gabe · #1 07-22-2003, 03:59 AM

20-40. Loose player who plays fairly well after the flop limps in MP. You limp on the button with A[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] . Average player in SB completes. Calling station in BB checks.
Flop: J[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]
SB bets. BB folds. MP calls. You call.
Turn: A[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]
SB bets. MP calls. Your play?

Rick Nebiolo · #2 07-22-2003, 05:49 AM

Gabe,

Most average players will check trips on the flop when first. So it is more likely the SB has a jack or another decent pair. But an eight can't be ruled out. If the SB has an eight it probably is trip eights with a weak kicker rather than a trip eights with a decent kicker.

The MP limper would generally raise by the turn if he had trips. But he might not with the pot so small, especially if he is very strong (e.g., already full) and is trying to let you in. So MP is on a flush draw of his own and drawing dead or so strong you may be drawing dead.

You badly beat your opponents if they are on the draw and if they continue to bet a jack. If you raise the turn you might lose the jack but keep the draw. The problem comes when you are against a strong trips. Now you often get reraised. If you get reraised you call and only call the river when you make your flush or an ace for aces full. So it looks like you should raise the turn.

If called on the turn check behind on the river on your misses. If you bet aces on the river and are called, you will get beat by weak trips more often than you will get paid off by a jack or pair.

If reraised on the turn by the SB and he only has trips (rather than a full) you could easily be drawing to about six outs and of course they don't always win. If reraised by the MP you are usually drawing dead.

Regards,

Rick

Ed Miller · #3 07-22-2003, 06:01 AM

I think you likely have the best hand here. If either of these players is likely to call you down with a Jack or pocket pair, then I think you should raise the turn. If your opponents will muck a weak pair to the turn raise, then I think just calling becomes better. Your hand is not very vulnerable at this point, so there's no need to chase smaller pairs out, and you don't want to be 3-bet by an 8.

rtrombone · #4 07-22-2003, 06:01 AM

Philuva · #5 07-22-2003, 01:01 PM

I think I would raise. With the player in between who appears to be on either a straight or flush draw, I think you get the most value by raising. I don't think the SB has an 8 or he probably would have gone for a check-raise.

So I would raise and expect to get called by at least one other player.

Plus, if you get 3-bet, you still have outs to probably the best hand.

Tyler Durden · #6 07-22-2003, 01:19 PM

Fold preflop. Raise the turn.

andyfox · #7 07-22-2003, 01:30 PM

You're limping on the button too much.

I'll leave it for Tommy Angelo to elaborate.

andyfox · #8 07-22-2003, 01:35 PM

Next time, have 8-6s when the flop comes J-8-8 and have A-4s when the board comes A-J-J-A. You're playing these backwards.

I'd probably have raised here. I hate playing limp, call, call when I have top pair and the nut flush draw. But when I keep betting when an ace comes, I either want to get raised or I'm hoping the other guys will fold. I can see the argument for just calling here.

bruce · #9 07-22-2003, 01:50 PM

Had you raised on the button you probably would not be in
this predicament.

acewithaface · #10 07-22-2003, 02:15 PM

I think you already made a mistake of not raising pre-flop. You should definitely raise in this spot on the turn. If the BB re-raises, he probably got a 8. YOu might lose the MP, (who is likely holding a medium pocket pair, or 9T for a st draw, or 2 overs with an Ace). If its heads up, then I check call to the river, and if a spade hits, you raise him back on the river. The bottom line is, u probably have the best hand, or choping right now, and if u are beat, you still have all the spades and 2/3 aces to make you the best hand, so Raise!