Playing a draw against a LAG, trying to pick up bluff outs

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
you are officially a troll

you also REALLY suck at poker

[/ QUOTE ]


klepton's back!

[TiltsMcFabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the Matador reference though. Was this a hand from that poker TV show or something? Or am I on drugs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who lurked for a year (as you claimed to have done) should know who The-Matador is

[/ QUOTE ]

I pretty much only read strategy posts, and read mostly HUSH and high limit. I guess I missed him, or didn't pay attention. I understand a bit more now, as this was pretty confusing. Are you saying I post like him, or I am him? Either way, I don't think I'm nearly as much of a total ass, and I'm certainly not some dopey troll on another account.

As I said, I'm here to try to learn ... though it's harder and harder when every second post seems to be responding to personal insults. Maybe I'll go back to lurking unless I have something really pressing to ask/add. I'm spending entirely too much time on this idiotic board drama, and I really could care less if people love or hate me so long as I get better at poker.

~ Tilts

[TiltsMcFabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
you are officially a troll

you also REALLY suck at poker

[/ QUOTE ]

No, actually I'm a winning player and have a pretty solid understanding of the game. I'm not trying to be arrogant, that's simply the truth. I'm certainly not world class, or nearly among the best players on this forum, but I certainly do not "suck".

You deciding to tell me I am a troll and that I suck at poker after being exposed to potentially 3 hands of mine on this strategy forum, all of which include some marginal decisions, makes me think it is you who is the troll. That or just another angry jerk on here. Whatever.

~ Tilts

[TiltsMcFabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
First I'd like to point out that trying to bluff a VPIP of 70 is just flat out insane. No doubt about it. You can say all you want about "he's been folding rivers", but thats because he's seeing almost all of them, and even horrible players will fold 7high to a river bet.

What you should be paying attention too, and something I didn't see you mention once during this thread, is what would he raise the turn with? Could it be a draw? A PP? Nothing? The turn action greatly defines his holdings, and then you can HONESTLY evaluate the chances of each and whether he's capable of folding any/all of them to a river bet.

The river donk/bet, however, will never work here, even if he has A-high. Its a mentality thing, and when you let him put the last bet in on the turn, he figured that whatever he had was better than what you had, and that river card certainly didn't appear to change anything.

For this to have any chance, you must 3bet the turn and bet any river (be it for bluff of for value). Now your talking about investing 4 BB to try and bluff a player who habitually (by his numbers) HATES to fold. Its just bad poker. Stop trying too hard and force your opponents to make their biggest mistakes more often. The line you took actually encourages your opponent to play better, which should be the last thing you want.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]

So what do I do on the river? Check and let him bet me into folding? I am investing 1 BB in an 8 BB pot. If he folds just one time in 8, I am making out alright. How can it not be right to take a stab at this pot when I have a chance of folding him off of an ace or a low PP. I am sure I have a better than 1 in 8 chance of folding him here.

The discussion on here makes me rethink this strategy, but so far the responses have been basically "he calls too much, so why bluff him" and "you'll never get away with this because he is so loose". That's simply not true, and it seems like some of the posters aren't paying attention or want to flame me regardless of what I have said.

To review ... he wasn't a calling station in my experience at the table. I had seen him make several river folds. I was sure he respected my play. He was not a total maniac. He was a very loose player preflop, and extremely aggressive postflop, but he was NOT incapable of laying down a hand on the river.

I thought he *might* call me with an ace here, and that there was also a chance that might call me with a worse king, or even a queen (he might have actually been a calling station and just been forced to lay down total rags on the river). I just wasn't sure. But I *was* pretty sure I wasn't winning the pot without betting, and it was a pretty large pot that I was willing to invest one more BB in to have a (relatively) decent chance to win it if he doesn't have a piece of the scary board. I had represented a jack the whole way--why isn't this a good opportunity to bet, when he was almost certainly raising me on a draw on the turn?

~ Tilts

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I pretty much only read strategy posts, and read mostly HUSH and high limit. I guess I missed him, or didn't pay attention. I understand a bit more now, as this was pretty confusing. Are you saying I post like him, or I am him? Either way, I don't think I'm nearly as much of a total ass, and I'm certainly not some dopey troll on another account.

As I said, I'm here to try to learn ... though it's harder and harder when every second post seems to be responding to personal insults. Maybe I'll go back to lurking unless I have something really pressing to ask/add. I'm spending entirely too much time on this idiotic board drama, and I really could care less if people love or hate me so long as I get better at poker.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]


Tilts, there are two possibilities for what happened in regards to your time on the forums:

1. You are a troll
2. You just got unlucky. The first hand posts you made were controversial, and led to some heated debate (this is more than normal on here). Then, since you were a new poster, you got a bad reputation. Then, things just snowballed.


What about this test? You create a new account, and come back. Then, several things could happen:

- You could become a valuable member of the community
- You could be a respected poster, who is known to be a little argumentative (nothing at all wrong with that)
- You could run a similar path, and have people not only accusing you of being The-Matador, but also Tilts!


You seem to think that the board full of hostile jerks. Well, this seems to be a good way of seeing if maybe it is not the board that was the reason for the ways things developed.


(Also, I think this should be the last time I respond to you, as (IF you are a troll) I dont want to get sucked in. And Flair may get on my case [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img])

[sfer]

You're missing the point that everyone is saying, which, restated, is that when he folds to the river bet, you're not bluffing. He's folding a worse hand.

[TiltsMcFabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
You're missing the point that everyone is saying, which, restated, is that when he folds to the river bet, you're not bluffing. He's folding a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

He called with K9 off.

~ Tilts

[TiltsMcFabulous]

I just really don't feel like I should have to make a new account. Honestly, and don't take this the wrong way, but I didn't come here to make friends or be a popular poster. Those things are meaningless to me, and so I'll just stop making posts in response to personal stuff. Call me Matador or whatever else you want I guess.

I came to learn, and I am learning. This thread has been very informative, even though I am disagreeing with much of the analysis. For example, I thought he might have folded an ace high flush draw or a low pocket pair. It turns out he wouldn't have, but at the time of the bet I thought there was a good chance he might have, so the results of the hand are really not relevant. It was, I think, the right play at the time I made it. In retrospect, it turns out he was a dreadful calling station who would have called me with ace-high, so I was very lucky to win. But given my reads and observation of his play at that table, I think it was a good bet.

I actually thought where I screwed up was the CR on the flop. I should have waited and popped him on the turn. Would have made my bluff more convincing, possibly (though he might have correctly read me for a draw and repopped, in which case I wouldn't have been able to pull the trigger on the river).

All in all, I thought it was an interesting hand and an interesting set of decisions. It's too bad the discussion got derailed and people decided they'd rather tell me I sucked than engage in a serious discussion of the hand.

~ Tilts

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is extremely laggy (70/27), but will fold on occassion.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

The theory here was that I wanted to CR him to represent the J/10 or a possible big draw to pick up phantom bluffing outs. I was pretty confident he was not on a flush draw or a pair, or I would have seen a flop reraise for sure. I figure he has picked up a draw or a pair on the turn.

When the J comes on the river, I bet out intending to fold to a raise, as one of my phantom outs has come in and the pot is big enough to stab at. He surprised me with his call.

Thoughts?

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I hate just about all of this. A flop c/r is a sign of weakness, not strength IMO. If you really want to add some folding equity, pull this on the turn when a brick hits.

You say this guy is a massive LAG, why are you firing back at him with K-high? I let this guy bet the whole way and hope I catch and then c/r him. IMO your turn bet sucks against a guy like this. The river bet is beyond comprehension IMO.

[TiltsMcFabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villian is extremely laggy (70/27), but will fold on occassion.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

The theory here was that I wanted to CR him to represent the J/10 or a possible big draw to pick up phantom bluffing outs. I was pretty confident he was not on a flush draw or a pair, or I would have seen a flop reraise for sure. I figure he has picked up a draw or a pair on the turn.

When the J comes on the river, I bet out intending to fold to a raise, as one of my phantom outs has come in and the pot is big enough to stab at. He surprised me with his call.

Thoughts?

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I hate just about all of this. A flop c/r is a sign of weakness, not strength IMO. If you really want to add some folding equity, pull this on the turn when a brick hits.

You say this guy is a massive LAG, why are you firing back at him with K-high? I let this guy bet the whole way and hope I catch and then c/r him. IMO your turn bet sucks against a guy like this. The river bet is beyond comprehension IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's these absolutes that really bug me about the strategy posts on here. It's really "beyond your comprehension" to bet the river? Truly?

I have been representing a jack or a 10 the whole way. The draws on board all miss, a 3rd jack comes, and I bet out because I probably cannot win the pot unless my opponent folds, and he may check behind me with a hand he would have folded to a bet, but which beats me. How is this beyond your comprehension?? It might be marginal, maybe even unwise, but it's certainly not insane or anything.

Why do people feel the need to resort to ridiculous hyperbole so often on here?

~ Tilts