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  #11  
Old 12-24-2005, 04:30 PM
Wynton Wynton is offline
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Default Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate

Considering villain raised pf, it's hard to see that he's going to have a 2 or 4 of diamonds in his hand. Possibly, he raised from MP with 55 or 77 (and one of them was a diamond). Seem more plausible that he raised with pocket Ts or Js (and therefore more likely that his flush is higher).

I am torn here about whether I could call a raise on the river, especially because it's such a bluff-inducing board. Is c/c the river (when diamond falls) so bad?
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  #12  
Old 12-24-2005, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate

People do all kinds of freaky deeky [censored] on 3 flush and 4 flush boards. Villain had better be damned well behaved for me to even think about folding here.
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  #13  
Old 12-24-2005, 05:00 PM
Wynton Wynton is offline
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Default Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate

I agree with you about how people behave with all those suits on the board. But doesn't that make it even more likely that we could induce a non-flush to bet the river, if we check?
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  #14  
Old 12-24-2005, 05:04 PM
Danenania Danenania is offline
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Default Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate

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I'm thinking check/call, check/fold unimproved. Bet/fold a river diamond and checkraise a river 8.

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Im really surprised you guys are saying bet/fold a diamond.

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I guess you could bet/call if you aren't comfortable with folding. I haven't played the 30 either so I'm not sure how the average unknown plays. I think he raises it is almost always KdQx or QxJd. A bluff or raise from a lower diamond don't really make sense though I suppose they could happen occasionally. I don't think it's common enough. But the difference isn't much.
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  #15  
Old 12-24-2005, 05:14 PM
surfdoc surfdoc is offline
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Default Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate

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I'm thinking check/call, check/fold unimproved. Bet/fold a river diamond and checkraise a river 8.

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Im really surprised you guys are saying bet/fold a diamond.

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Your hand is pretty transparent if you check/call the turn and then bet a 4 flush river, I dont see getting bluff raised (or smaller diamond) really, but I dont play the 30/60, so I could be way off

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well if we check call the turn that implies that he bets the turn. there arent many hands that are gonna have a bigger diamond than us and bet the turn and raise the river.

edit-alobar has informed me that all im really doing here is making a case for betting vs checking. clarkmeisters theorem says bet/call not bet fold dammit!

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Clark's theorem doesn't apply here. It is not for when you actually have the flush. It is also a bet fold line. Some discussion and links here.
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  #16  
Old 12-24-2005, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate

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I agree with you about how people behave with all those suits on the board. But doesn't that make it even more likely that we could induce a non-flush to bet the river, if we check?

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They're seperate events. He will check behind with a pair, so we must donk for value. If he raises he may be trying to move us off a better pair, a small flush, or just because he knows that if you raise on a four flush board people sometimes fold. We should call. Now, very little of that makes sense, but I don't expect my uknown opponents to act logically or in their best interests. I expect them to do random donkey [censored] because they are, by and large, random idiot donkeys.
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  #17  
Old 12-24-2005, 06:09 PM
Wynton Wynton is offline
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Default Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate

Bryce,

I'm confused when you say they are separate events.

Are you really saying that the same player who will check behind with a pair, is also likely to raise the river with the same holding? If he's the type to raise the river with his pair when we bet, can't we also count on him betting the river with his pair when we check?
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  #18  
Old 12-24-2005, 06:30 PM
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Default Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate

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Bryce,

I'm confused when you say they are separate events.

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The reasons we call or fold if we get raised on the river are completely unrelated to the reasons why we bet (how often we're raised by a better hand is a consideration, but betting is still easily the best play here).

As for the other part, the short answer is: "yes". Remember that betting is for value in relation to how often he will call us with a worse hand and calling a bet is concerned with how often we have a better hand in relation to the size of the pot. If I expected him to check behind with a pair often and raise as bluff only sometimes it is still possible for both the bet and the call to be correct (101 stuff, I know, but hopefully that'll give you an idea of what I mean by "independent").
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  #19  
Old 12-24-2005, 07:08 PM
ArturiusX ArturiusX is offline
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Default Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate

How do we play this if we don't have the fd?
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  #20  
Old 12-24-2005, 07:11 PM
baronzeus baronzeus is offline
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Default Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate

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How do we play this if we don't have the fd?

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Bet/fold, if you calls my bet, I c/f river.
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