Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to answer

[revots33]

Innate natural ability + discipline + hard work. Keys to success in just about any field, come to think of it.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

They play and/or study 15hrs a day. Thats all folks.

[timmer]

<Yet, I've been wondering lately, what accounts for certain players rapid and meteoric rise to success.>

meteoric rise to success often isnt as meteoric as it seems to be.

If it is, it is usually fueled by a huge tankfull of Luck.

especially in the huge tournament fields.

[ QUOTE ]
They play and/or study 15hrs a day. Thats all folks.

[/ QUOTE ]

And who says that poker isn't get rich quick!!! Baw, I say!

[MicroBob]

I agree with the general ideas about confidence and balls, etc etc.

But I also wanted to point out this scenario:

100k poker-players with an equal amount of skills and all of them played the same amount and all decided to take a 'shot' at the next level every once in awhile...and then maybe move up again if they are fortunate to succeed there...etc etc.
Well, you would likely have a handful of these 'equal strength' players catch the right cards at the perfect times and move their way up higher and higher.

I think that neverwin thinks on a level that is a step or two above most of us (or his opponents) but, you also have to consider that there is a great deal of luck involved.


Just like if you ran a simulation of the WSOP main-event 1 million times, you would have some nobody come from out of nowhere playing in his first live-event and win the thing just by being TOO aggressive and catching good cards at the right times.


But the topic of what makes this GREAT poker-players tick is an interesting one.
ggbman made a post of his success in poker (in the general forum). Here's an 18 year old kid who's been playing poker for a couple years and has had terrific success. He's articulate and seeme extremely mature in his approach to poker.

I think in cases like ggbman and neverwin and others it's not JUST a case of drive and studying and courage to push the big money around....there's also a very basic element that some people are simply smarter than others too.

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the general ideas about confidence and balls, etc etc.

But I also wanted to point out this scenario:

100k poker-players with an equal amount of skills and all of them played the same amount and all decided to take a 'shot' at the next level every once in awhile...and then maybe move up again if they are fortunate to succeed there...etc etc.
Well, you would likely have a handful of these 'equal strength' players catch the right cards at the perfect times and move their way up higher and higher.

I think that neverwin thinks on a level that is a step or two above most of us (or his opponents) but, you also have to consider that there is a great deal of luck involved.


Just like if you ran a simulation of the WSOP main-event 1 million times, you would have some nobody come from out of nowhere playing in his first live-event and win the thing just by being TOO aggressive and catching good cards at the right times.


But the topic of what makes this GREAT poker-players tick is an interesting one.
ggbman made a post of his success in poker (in the general forum). Here's an 18 year old kid who's been playing poker for a couple years and has had terrific success. He's articulate and seeme extremely mature in his approach to poker.

I think in cases like ggbman and neverwin and others it's not JUST a case of drive and studying and courage to push the big money around....there's also a very basic element that some people are simply smarter than others too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that MicroBob hit on it pretty clean here. It isn't that these players are so much better than the rest of us at birth. There is a ton of luck. Look at Greg Raymer. Sure he was a great player etc before, but he never would have had the year he had last year had it not been for his WSOP win. He is now a bonafide top tournament player and well respected by all. This would not be the case if he hadn't combined his skill (the same level of which was likely held by many in that same 2004 event) with a considerable amount of luck to win that ME. If others in that crowd would have won instead, possibly they would now have the backing and ability to be on his stage.

The same goes for online play. Many top internet players built their rolls through improbable large cashes. Look at ZeeJustin and his 6 figure cash, who knows what he'll be able to accomplish with a roll like that. If he had not had the cash, maybe the things to follow wouldn't have happened.

A big MTT win can be a huge confidence booster, networking opportunity and buffer to not need money and focus on poker. These things lead to further success. Without the requisite luck to get that first big cash, many players likely are not getting their big break.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Sorry, but I really don't know what separates them from the rest of us. As David once said, some poker greats are just "freaks" in the same sense that Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods are "freaks." They have a gift that they probably can't explain themselves, and I certainly can't explain it either.

Regards,

Al

Dr. Al,
I was so excited to see you respond to my post. I tried to email you this question but the email didn't go through so I decided to post it here and get others' opinions as well. Is there any way to explain their ability to reduce their mistakes in such a quick manner or are their swings to great for an outsider to adequately gague their mistakes?

[Alex/Mugaaz]

No. It's really just time and work. I'm sure a lot of these guys are smart too, but anyone who plays and studies 15hrs a day is going to make it to the 20/40 at least. Now if you're not very smart maybe you may get stuck here, and if you're only mildly intelligent you may never be able to play higher than 30/60. It probably takes some genius, work/study ethic, and luckboxing to win higher than that.

Everyone on this forum is in love with the concept of extremely gifted people, but the one thing all of the top people here DO have in common is how much they play poker, study poker, and run hot. If you're smart youre going to move up faster and have a greater chance of being able to beat the harder games, but as long as you don't suffer from a learning disorder you can do very well as long as you put in the hours. Anyone who thinks they're going to be crushing 50/100NL playing/studying 12hrs a week needs to be kicked in the face. Almost no amount of genius and only insane luck is going to get them there.

Intelligence is only the deciding factor when both people work as hard.

[Al Schoonmaker]

I'm sorry that your email did not go through. I have terrible problems with emails, despite having a new, powerful computer and DSL. My email address is alannschoonmaker@hotmail.com.

The critical element in correcting mistakes is ruthless objectivity. You must be willing to:
1. Accept that you have made a mistake.
2. Try to understand WHY you made it.

Most people are poor at both. Partly because poker's feedback is confusing, they don't recognize their own mistakes. Even if they do recognize them, they may not think of the psychological factors that caused them to make these mistakes.

Because almost everyone lacks objectivity about himself, develop relationships with friends who will tell you about your mistakes -- even when you don't want to hear the truth.

The more you don't want to hear something, the more you need to hear it.

I've written several articles for the 2+2 internet magazine on denial. You may find them useful.

Regards,

Al