Implied odds of a flush draw?

Inevitable · #1 10-23-2005, 03:48 PM

Is it incorrect to draw on nut flush from the flop if you are not sure of the implied odds for a pot-sized bet? I assume that if you can get the 4:1 implied odds from any given villian, it's correct... but can you really be sure that villian doesn't know you hit the flush with 3 of a suit on the turn or river?

Mercman572 · #2 10-23-2005, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is it incorrect to draw on nut flush from the flop if you are not sure of the implied odds for a pot-sized bet? I assume that if you can get the 4:1 implied odds from any given villian, it's correct... but can you really be sure that villian doesn't know you hit the flush with 3 of a suit on the turn or river?

[/ QUOTE ]

you need 1:5 immediate odds for one card, and 1:3 to see it through. so you need better implied odds than 1:4 for it to be correct to call.

rikz · #3 10-23-2005, 04:32 PM

I think the best way to ensure that you get no implied odds at all is to just limp/call preflop, then cold call the flop and turn chasing a flush. It ends up being so obvious when you raise on the flush card that you don't get any more out of the guy betting up to that point unless he has a set and is trying to redraw for a full house.

FWIW, calling to an OESD probably has much higher implied odds because double belly busters and other OESDs are well concealed and will be very difficult for the aggressor to identify when you wake up and raise the turn or river.

So, for calling with a flush draw with no straight draw or pair, calculate the odds one card at a time if you just want to call. 4.2:1 pots odds needed to call a flop bet. 4.1:1 odds to call a turn bet. 1.6:1 odds if you're calling all-in on the flop.

Betting and raising is often better than just calling. Unfortunately, making a pot-sized semi-bluff raise over a continuation bet from a preflop raiser with TPTK or an overpair seems so "obvious" to that preflop raiser that I've found it doesn't work so well. On the other hand, when I make pot-sized raise on a 2-flush board over a preflop raiser's continuation bet when I hit a set, then he usually says to himself, "This guy must be on a draw, I [call/raise/push]," but they don't fold and my set cleans up.

Inevitable · #4 10-23-2005, 04:33 PM

Yeah, but I'm saying you don't know the implied odds for sure, would you call a PSB w/ NFD OTF or not if given no information?

afreeman · #5 10-24-2005, 01:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but I'm saying you don't know the implied odds for sure, would you call a PSB w/ NFD OTF or not if given no information?

[/ QUOTE ]

What does "PSB w/ NFD OTF" mean? Pot-sized bet with no flush draw...?

Anyway, my rule, in the absense of any reads, is that I assume I can wrack my opponent for at least one more bet if I hit. Thus, assuming none of your flush cards help an opponent, the pot odds of hitting in one card (4:1) would be reduced to implied odds of 3:1. No, its not perfect, but it seems to work pretty well (but look out for paired boards).