What the...?

[marbles]

online game last night. Very loose-passive preflop (5-6 seeing unraised flops), but aggressive/tricky postflop.

I get QJo in the SB and complete after 4 limpers. BB checks, 6 to the flop.

Flop: J72, with 2 clubs (I have the Qc). I check, second-to-last guy bets, button calls, I checkraise. Two coldcallers, initial better calls, button RERAISES. I call, others call.

Turn is a blank (offsuit 5 IIRC). Checked to the button who bets, I call, one other caller.

River pairs the 2, no flushes. Final board: J7522. Checked to the button, I call, third guy folds.

Misplayed on every street? What do you put the button on? Results on next post, but NO PEEKING!

[marbles]

Button shows down red aces to scoop. Are you surprised? What do you think of his play?

[bernie]

i think he played it fine....you payed him off didnt you? i think he ran a great variation play on the table...

b

[marbles]

Of course I paid him off, but I still can't imagine I'd ever do the same thing in that game. Not raising the button preflop and then not raising a flush-draw board on the flop was gamblin'. If I ever tried it, I guarantee the turn and river would be baby clubs, and my monitor would be through the window and in the yard.

[bernie]

he was planning on raising the turn...but when he saw the raise on the flop, he decided what the hell..change the plans..

he made the flush pay quite a bit really....

you may be looking too much at the ABC way of playing this hand....this was a great variation play to look at...

he had a plan, but had to alter it and followed through...

no, it's not a default play, but a nice play

b

[Punker]

Players who play aces this way tend to play them this way regardless of the situation and the flop and the turn.

Remember...all he knows at the point of his call on the flop is that everyone has checked to the guy in front of him, who has bet. His play isn't too bad in this instance, as from his perspective, he is possibly going to be headsup against a hand that should either be a flush draw or top pair, both of which are likely to bet the turn again if they bet the flop. If he's going to be headsup and can punish his opponent with a turn raise, why not try it?

Additional players entering the hand probably don't hurt him as much on the flop as they likely have 5 outs or less if they continue play. This also assumes he's capable of putting down the aces on the turn if action dictates.

[marbles]

"dditional players entering the hand probably don't hurt him as much on the flop as they likely have 5 outs or less if they continue play."

--This is exactly where I figure he's in trouble. Sure, I never had more than 5 outs, but that's just MY hand. There may also be a guy out there with a 7 (5 more outs), and/or a guy with clubs (8-9 more outs), and who knows, maybe a gutshot draw (4 more outs). Collectively, the field is hot on his tail; he needs to knock people out and/or punish their draws.

[Punker]

They may all have those 5 outs, but whether they can call with them is in doubt. Further, many of the outs may be duplicated by a possible flush draw. Assume he believes 1/3 people in the hand have flopped a pair, and 1 has flopped a flush draw. He assumes he's up against approximately 13-15 outs in this spot. It's not the worst thing in the world to wait till a safe card comes on the turn to raise.

Like I say, I wouldn't have played the hand the way he did, but it's not the worst gamble I've ever seen.

[marbles]

"Like I say, I wouldn't have played the hand the way he did, but it's not the worst gamble I've ever seen."

--Ditto on both counts. Thing is, the stars have to align just right for it to pay off; it can pay off pretty huge when it works, and it certainly did for him in this case.

[SoBeDude]

Collectively, the field is hot on his tail; he needs to knock people out and/or punish their draws.

True. He does need to punish the drawing hands. How is this best accomplished? And how can he knock people out? Many players would wait until the turn to raise, assuming that after your check-raise you'd lead the turn. So if he smoothcalled the flop then he could raise the turn. Problem is the callers are between the two of you and his raise will not push anyone out, even on the turn. Also, by waiting until the turn, he's given away a card that might help someone make a hand. So a turn raise, instead of his raise coming before two cards, comes before one.

Also given his position, a preflop raise simply announces he has a hand, but really won't push many people out...certainly none of the callers will fold, and one of the blinds will probably stay in as well. But it would build a pot. Now by not raising preflop, who can put him on AA when he raises the flop? He's encouraging people to stay in the hand too long after the flop. This can be a good thing.

I think it was a good alternative to raising preflop. Now it will be harder to put him on a hand when he calls in the future too.

-Scott