Fourth-level thinking in Razz, for TT

[timprov]

Crossposting this from my LJ, as it bears on one of our occasional discussions. And it's a nice illustration of why Razz is a good thinking game, despite its reputation.

FullTiltPoker Game #228052257: $5 + $0.50 Tournament (1400220), Table 2 - 120/240 Ante 20 - Limit Razz - 5:12:52 ET - 2005/09/23
Seat 1: TheDotComMan (5,024)
Seat 3: fireitupbaby (1,613)
Seat 4: J85 (2,944)
Seat 5: AF0809 (4,177)
Seat 6: maniacinsocal (2,995)
Seat 7: Tapirboy (1,134)
TheDotComMan antes 20
fireitupbaby antes 20
J85 antes 20
AF0809 antes 20
maniacinsocal antes 20
Tapirboy antes 20
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to TheDotComMan [4d]
Dealt to fireitupbaby [Qd]
Dealt to J85 [9c]
Dealt to AF0809 [2s]
Dealt to maniacinsocal [2c]
Dealt to Tapirboy [3h Ac] [4h]
fireitupbaby is high with [Qd]
fireitupbaby brings in for 40
J85 folds
AF0809 calls 40
maniacinsocal completes it to 120
Tapirboy raises to 240
TheDotComMan folds
fireitupbaby folds
AF0809 folds
maniacinsocal calls 120
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to maniacinsocal [2c] [Td]
Dealt to Tapirboy [3h Ac 4h] [Qc]
maniacinsocal bets 120
Tapirboy calls 120
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to maniacinsocal [2c Td] [Tc]
Dealt to Tapirboy [3h Ac 4h Qc] [9h]
Tapirboy bets 240
maniacinsocal calls 240
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to maniacinsocal [2c Td Tc] [Kc]
Dealt to Tapirboy [3h Ac 4h Qc 9h] [5c]
Tapirboy bets 240
maniacinsocal has 15 seconds left to act
maniacinsocal calls 240
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to Tapirboy [3h Ac 4h Qc 9h 5c] [2h]
Tapirboy bets 240
maniacinsocal calls 240
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Tapirboy shows [3h 2h 4h Qc 9h 5c Ac] (5,4,3,2,A)
maniacinsocal mucks
Tapirboy wins the pot (2,360) with 5,4,3,2,A
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2,360 | Rake 0
Seat 1: TheDotComMan folded on 3rd St.
Seat 3: fireitupbaby folded on 3rd St.
Seat 4: J85 folded on 3rd St.
Seat 5: AF0809 folded on 3rd St.
Seat 6: maniacinsocal mucked [7c 5d 2c Td Tc Kc Ah] - T,7,5,2,A
Seat 7: Tapirboy showed [3h 2h 4h Qc 9h 5c Ac] and won (2,360) with 5,4,3,2,A



This is a key hand from my Razz win this morning, essentially the start of my building chips. It's key to know that maniacinsocal is a good Razz player and knows I'm a good Razz player. He finished second to me in the tournament I won at the beginning of the month, and we spent most of the time at the same table. We've also been at this table together for nearly an hour.

Sixth is what's interesting, and if you've read Sklansky on Razz you know why. For those who haven't, let me say that Sklansky recommends checking here. Maniac is clearly drawing dead, but checking sixth disguises my hand and may get me a call on the end. Usually I agree with this.

The important thing in this hand is that I know that Maniac knows that, and I also know Maniac knows that I know that. So a bet is obviously best, because Maniac must think that if I really did have a made 9, I would check. And in this case I was right and got him to call me down with a ten.

[DeadMoneyOC]

He is a 2-1 dog on 5th, and still a 2-1 dog on 6th even if he thinks you paired your 5. I think his call on 5th is bad(esp in a tournament) but since I agree with you that you played 6th street very well I guess he is forced to call if he thinks you paired your 5. I think the villian is a calling station.

[Luv2DriveTT]

Good post Timprov. Personally I like the bet but not for the 4th level reasons you described, I like it because we don't expect a call on 7th street at all unless the villain hits his magic range of cards. 6th street was a last ditch effort to get a bet out of him, the fact that you got another call on 7th street is surprising, I would venture to guess that it would happen less often than perceived.

PS: I haven't played Razz in a bit, I'd love to play soon! More and more 2+2'ers with a firm grasp of the fundamental theorem of poker seem to be picking up TD (Bug Stud and Chris Daddy Cool are perfect examples, they are playing some rather big games compared to the main triple draw theorists on this site), it won't be long before they venture into Razz for the same reasons you and I have.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[beset7]

tt, timprov, gritter, and others:

your last post TT brings up a question I had. Why are you all playing these lowball games? I play a fair amount of razz and 2-7 TD but its mostly for entertainment value and because I like to fantasize about playing in big mixed games some day. What is your motiviation? The table selection isn't very good and other games, especially that one all the kids like to play where you only get 2 hole cards, are much more profitable in the current climate.

Just curious. I've wanted to ask this for a while.

[somapopper]

[ QUOTE ]
tt, timprov, gritter, and others:

your last post TT brings up a question I had. Why are you all playing these lowball games? I play a fair amount of razz and 2-7 TD but its mostly for entertainment value and because I like to fantasize about playing in big mixed games some day. What is your motiviation? The table selection isn't very good and other games, especially that one all the kids like to play where you only get 2 hole cards, are much more profitable in the current climate.

Just curious. I've wanted to ask this for a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that you asked me, but for what it's worth...

a. Razz and td are fascinating games that get you thinking about poker in a wider less prescriptive way. They're good development towards becoming a generalist and thinking about them help all aspects of your poker game.

b. bad players in these games can be very very bad. The relative lack of information about the games results in a lot of people really not knowing what they're doing at all, and a lot fewer table coaches too.

c. I'm good at getting bad cards.

[randomstumbl]

[ QUOTE ]
tt, timprov, gritter, and others:

your last post TT brings up a question I had. Why are you all playing these lowball games? I play a fair amount of razz and 2-7 TD but its mostly for entertainment value and because I like to fantasize about playing in big mixed games some day. What is your motiviation? The table selection isn't very good and other games, especially that one all the kids like to play where you only get 2 hole cards, are much more profitable in the current climate.

Just curious. I've wanted to ask this for a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play TDL because it's fun and I make a decent amount of money at the same time. Also, it's probably become my best game; though, there could be an argument of correlation vs. causation there.

I disagree with game selection being tough for TDL. If there isn't a good game, I just go play something else. I feel like I have a pretty good advantage over most of the regulars, but maybe I'm wrong.

Finally, my results show that I tend to do better with TDL. I don't know what my BB/100 is, but I'm 90% confident it's well over 2bb/100.

[timprov]

[ QUOTE ]
More and more 2+2'ers with a firm grasp of the fundamental theorem of poker seem to be picking up TD (Bug Stud and Chris Daddy Cool are perfect examples, they are playing some rather big games compared to the main triple draw theorists on this site), it won't be long before they venture into Razz for the same reasons you and I have.


[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair, CDC's been playing triple draw longer than I have, and I think longer than you have. He more or less kickstarted the TD discussion here, and I wish he'd stuck around once the rest of us got it going.

I think Razz will be somewhat immune to the effect, though -- TD is still new and flashy to a lot of people, while Razz has decades of awful reputation to overcome.

[timprov]

[ QUOTE ]

your last post TT brings up a question I had. Why are you all playing these lowball games? I play a fair amount of razz and 2-7 TD but its mostly for entertainment value and because I like to fantasize about playing in big mixed games some day. What is your motiviation? The table selection isn't very good and other games, especially that one all the kids like to play where you only get 2 hole cards, are much more profitable in the current climate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flip answer: profitability isn't everything, and holdem is boring.

More thoroughly, I really need a game that keeps my attention and builds my skills to space between the grinding sessions. Not that I've done much grinding recently. But my opinion is that TD and Razz are 1-2 in poker variants that allow a high-level thinking player to use that advantage. Even thinking at the third level doesn't happen all that often in holdem, and above that almost never. In the 5/10 TD game, a hand that doesn't require at least third-level thinking is a surprise.

Also, to the gamer in me, it's much more satisfying to beat a competent or good player than a donkey.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
The table selection isn't very good and other games, especially that one all the kids like to play where you only get 2 hole cards, are much more profitable in the current climate.


[/ QUOTE ]

The level of play in these games, even by many of the winning players, is not that great. The 2-7 TD games, at least at the 10/20 level (and from what I have seen sweating the 30/60 very briefly) are soft, much softer than say the old 15/30 on party (I haven't played LHE seriously since before they added to the number of 30/60 tables.) I don't have a big enough sample size yet, but I think I can make as much one tabling the 10/20 2-7 on UB as I can 8 tabling the 55's (S&G's) on party. I could be running hot, but even so I am able to identify many specific leaks in my opponents play.

[beset7]

Thanks for sharing your motivations. I play lowball games mostly for the same reasons as all of you have stated. 2-7 TD game selection, i should have stated as a cavaet, is a pip or two better then what I've experienced with Razz, where most games above the micro limits tend to be atleast somewhat challenging unless there is a bonafide producer in the game and the games 5/10 and higher go so rarely. But I guess thats part of the fun...