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  #1  
Old 12-27-2005, 12:40 AM
turtlestar turtlestar is offline
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Default 15/30 river decision

Apparently the passing of the 25th of December did nothing to dampen the generous mood found in today's live 15-30. Hero is in lucksack mode hitting many, many hands and rushing.

Hero open raises 3 off the button with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I realize this is raise is, to put it mildy, "questionable." It is, however, no the interesting part of the hand. Button calls, BB, our villain for this hand, calls.

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain checks, hero bets, button and villain call. I cannot stress how little these calls mean. For BOTH opps, the calls could mean anything from backdoor flush draws to 2 overcards to any pair.

Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Villain checks, hero bets, button folds, villain calls. Villain says "check dark," before the river.

River: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain already checked, hero bets, villain raises, hero folds.

All comments welcome,
ts
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  #2  
Old 12-27-2005, 01:07 PM
dave44 dave44 is offline
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Default Re: 15/30 river decision

I call the raise everytime. I don't make much of this "check dark" business either.
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  #3  
Old 12-27-2005, 01:47 PM
onegymrat onegymrat is offline
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Default Re: 15/30 river decision

Hi ts,

You didn't put much description of the villain, and if he were an unknown, I would definitely call down. If villain can be tricky, and hangs around for any gutshot, then I would have checked the river. This is a hand that you need to survive showdown.
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Old 12-27-2005, 03:00 PM
me454555 me454555 is offline
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Default Re: 15/30 river decision

[ QUOTE ]
If villain can be tricky, and hangs around for any gutshot, then I would have checked the river

[/ QUOTE ]

This is all the more reason to bet/call the river. Players who will call w/anything need to be value bet against relentlessly. If he's loose enough to hang around w/a gutter ball or bd strait he's loose enough to call w/middle pair or worse. Even though he's tricky the majority of hands that he checks are those that you are ahead of and we dont know the real strenth of his hand untill he check raises. Since he will check/call quite a good amount of time checking behind just isn't a good option, even if he's a tricky player

If he were the type of player that wouldn't call that often w/a worse made hand but WOULD check raise w/good hands that you beat as well as hands you don't, checking behind becomes the superior option. I don't think villain fits that description however.
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  #5  
Old 12-27-2005, 03:08 PM
onegymrat onegymrat is offline
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Default Re: 15/30 river decision

[ QUOTE ]
Since he will check/call quite a good amount of time checking behind just isn't a good option, even if he's a tricky player

[/ QUOTE ] Good point. Which is why I mentioned that I would call down, since the only description of the villiain is that he is a "lucksack" and on a "rush".

I just don't think that this may be the time for hero to bet/fold. If he weren't going to call down with that river, he shouldn't have bet.
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  #6  
Old 12-27-2005, 03:45 PM
SackUp SackUp is offline
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Default Re: 15/30 river decision

Why are you folding here??? You realize you just hit two pair right?? You put him squarely on 108 or J9?

I would put about negative weight into the "check dark" crap.
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  #7  
Old 12-28-2005, 10:27 PM
turtlestar turtlestar is offline
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Default Re: 15/30 river decision

Thank you for the replies.

One small note: it was me, the hero, who was hitting a lot of hands, not the villain.

Anyway, here is my thought process on the river.
The "check dark" comment led me to believe that the villain wanted a cheap showdown and was calling on the river no matter what. This, in turn, led me to believe that villain was calling with a wide range of one pair hands including any J, 7, or 6. That is why I bet for value on the river.

I also believed the villain to NOT be a tricky player. In the 6 hours I played with him (this hand was about 4 hours in) I had never seen him raise the turn or river without a big hand. That is why I folded on the river.

I believed him to be one of those pessimistic players we all love to play against who always thinks someone else has a better hand. I just plain could not see him check raising the river without a straight. If I had to guess, I would say he had J8, 87, or 86.

Just an aside, as a new poster I think I need to reconsider the hands I post or how I post them. The ones I think are interesting are often player/read dependent. I think I need to add more player info to help all respoders.

Thanks for the posts,
ts
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  #8  
Old 12-29-2005, 12:37 AM
Dazarath Dazarath is offline
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Default Re: 15/30 river decision

Read dependent is fine, but you may want to include your reads in your post.
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  #9  
Old 12-29-2005, 02:20 AM
onegymrat onegymrat is offline
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Default Re: 15/30 river decision

[ QUOTE ]
One small note: it was me, the hero, who was hitting a lot of hands, not the villain.

[/ QUOTE ]I was never good at reading comprehension back in school. I stand corrected.
[ QUOTE ]
I also believed the villain to NOT be a tricky player. In the 6 hours I played with him (this hand was about 4 hours in) I had never seen him raise the turn or river without a big hand. That is why I folded on the river.

[/ QUOTE ] You seem to be very astute, especially with your summary. It's reads like this that wouldn't matter what others think, because we weren't there for the four hours, and you were. [ QUOTE ]
Just an aside, as a new poster I think I need to reconsider the hands I post or how I post them. The ones I think are interesting are often player/read dependent. I think I need to add more player info to help all respoders.

[/ QUOTE ] I agree with this somewhat. Creating the extra edge for yourself will often depend on how well you read your opponents. This is one important part of the game which I find so intriging. But at the same time, the read is yours and yours only, so to describe it so everyone sees it your way in a post is diffcult to accomplish.
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