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  #1  
Old 12-23-2005, 08:30 AM
private joker private joker is offline
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Default Interesting PF situation

This situation hasn't come up too often for me, and I'd like to discuss a possible range of raising hands.

Think of a live 20/40 game where play is typically loose and bad, wavering between too aggressive and too passive depending on players.

The table is 8-handed. One of the 8 players posts in MP1, having just sat down and wanting in on the action right away, evidently. Another player is in the CO, also having just posted after changing tables. So half the table has posted blind money. The other 4 players are UTG, UTG+1, you in the hijack, and the button.

Reads: None on the new players/posters. Button is a tight player and decently aggressive when he has a hand. SB is fairly tight-passive. BB seems fairly loose and passive, but it's a small sample size and not a very reliable read.

UTG and UTG+1 fold. MP checks his option. Now it's to you. How wide is your raising range here? You need to risk $40 into a pot that already contains $70 of dead money, so I'm thinking it's a very wide range. Are there any hands you're limping here? If so, how do they differ from hands you'd limp normally in the hijack?

After some discussion, I'll tell you the hand I actually had in this situation and what the results were.

EDIT: I should also add what Hero's table image is here, for I believe it's pretty important. If you've been raising a lot PF and showing down some marginal hands, it's probably wise to scale back on what you're stealing with here. But let's say Hero's image is solid -- either due to being card dead or just playing tight, you haven't been mixed up in a lot of pots and you've shown down lots of premium hands. Then again, the new guys in MP and CO don't know you from Douche Bigalow.
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  #2  
Old 12-23-2005, 01:21 PM
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Default Re: Interesting PF situation

First, let me say that I am new to the site and read these threads because a lot better players than myself post here. I do appreciate the wisdom.

Second, I myself am dubious to the "wide range of raising hands" you discuss because your raise (pot = $110) gives the LP BB 5.5:1 to call, which he will almost certainly do,and successively better odds to each additional blind. It seems that you are going to have a lot of company whatever you do.

For any kind of drawing hand KQs to perhaps JTx I would call. Any pair lower than Jacks, and perhaps also Jack, I would likewise limp in. I would only raise with a premium hand, AQs or better.

Again, my experience is mainly in low limit where driving people off a hand is an urban myth. I am very interested to hear what more experienced players would do. Great question!
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  #3  
Old 12-23-2005, 02:32 PM
Barry Barry is offline
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Default Re: Interesting PF situation

There is a lot of money in the pot, but you now have to get through 4 blinds so you can't go overboard. You say the normal blinds are on the passive side so that is good, however MP1, came to play, so he is going to see the flop, most likely. Is the button aware enough to know that you might be raising light. If so a little extra caution is in order, but I think that I'm raising something like this:

77+
A5s+
A9+
98s+
JT+

I'd be hard pressed to just limp with anything.
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  #4  
Old 12-23-2005, 02:52 PM
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Default Re: Interesting PF situation

In this situation I'm raising anything I'd normally raise from the hijack w/ a limper in front of me, and adding any suited connecters (56 and higher)... the reason I do this is because it will disguise my hand, if there are only two people to the flop then I can play it as a monster, where as if there are 6 people to the flop, I can get out only having wasted 1 extra sb, not a big deal in a pot that potentially could have been 20bb if we hit our flop... normally depending on the table and who is behind me I'm raising 77 and 88 on the hijack w/ a limper in front of me.... I think I probably just limp w/ those hands here and probably raise 99, although the argument can be made to limp w/ 99 and TT as well here
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  #5  
Old 12-23-2005, 06:29 PM
chav chav is offline
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Default Re: Interesting PF situation

This sounds like Paradise to me.U will be called by all blinds exept by total trash.Raise with;
66+
any suited connectors (to build a pot)
any Ak,AQ,As.
The point is not that raising with the weaker hands is correct but rather that u wonna play those against all the blind money out there but limping is lame u need to buy position and chase some trash hands out so if u gonna play better raise and u might get a free turn as a bonus as well.
never give the fish a break.
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  #6  
Old 12-23-2005, 06:55 PM
PokerCad PokerCad is offline
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Default Re: Interesting PF situation

I would raise almost any hand that I was willing to play to try and get position and go from there. It's the best of both worlds, you can hope to push people not yet in the hand off while still have enough blind money to make your good draws worth while and get paid off well when they hit
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  #7  
Old 12-23-2005, 08:17 PM
Alex/Mugaaz Alex/Mugaaz is offline
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Default Re: Interesting PF situation

Only hands I would limp would be the very small pair and small SCs.
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  #8  
Old 12-23-2005, 08:33 PM
goofball goofball is offline
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Default Re: Interesting PF situation

I think you should limp with a very very wide range of hands here, and riase with about your normal range. You have to get through a lot of blinds so don't open up too much, just use your normal folded to me in the HJ standards. However you can limp with a lot of hands since first, there's a lot of dead money in the pot laying you a good price and second, the action player has already checked indicating his hand sucks. Axs, Kxs, Q7s+ maybe, two offsuit cards above 8, suited one gappers, suited connectors, any pocket pair. I dunno, seems reasonable to m e.
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  #9  
Old 12-23-2005, 08:37 PM
mike l. mike l. is offline
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Default Re: Interesting PF situation

you are almost never going to clear out even two of the blinds. i can say this because i know this hand took place in the 20 games i play in all the time. so plan for a 4-5 way pot and raise accordingly. you should raise with anything that plays well multiway raised pot and gives you an equity edge over there random hands but be inclined to limp with all sorts of hands as well. this sort of hand comes up all the time in these games because you frequently get 1-2 players that are playing any hand for however many bets no matter what, and blinds who will almost never fold.
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  #10  
Old 12-23-2005, 09:15 PM
shant shant is offline
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Default Re: Interesting PF situation

I don't think your range should widen up that much more because you are acting in front of the CO. If you were after both posters and they had both checked, then it would be a different situation. In this spot you're probably going to end up being slightly OOP in a multiway raised pot.
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