KQ on ragged board against ragged players

10/20, Party Poker (10 handed)

Hero is UTG + 2. Table is loose, passive preflop, with very little raising unless they are playing with tier one hands. On the flop, table is moderately less passive, though players have been calling flop raises with two overcards and no draws. Overall, an awful table.

UTG + 1 limps
Hero raises with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
MP calls
MP2 calls
SB folds
BB calls
UTG + 1 calls

Pot: 100

Flop:

5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG checks, hero bets. MP1 folds, MP2 calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Logic: At this table, which seems like a tourist attraction, my KQ are most likely live, I have an outside flush draw and outside straight draw. Very little reraising, 100 pot already, and pretty sure that I'll get two calls so putting 20 into 160. Logic - good/bad? Why?

Pot: 160
Turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG bets, Hero reraises, MP2 calls, UTG+1 calls.

Reasoning: This was a tough one. I feel the ace hit UTG+1, as now he is leading the betting and has been pretty much calling hoping to his overs and just betting out when overs hit. I have a fairly inconspicuous hand and am hoping to profit from a two or three bet on the river. I'm putting 40 into what is now a 200 pot, what will likely become a 260 pot when things are done on the turn. If I hit the nut flush or straight, I'll probably get two or maybe even (but not likely) three big bets out of UTG+1 on the river. Who knows, maybe even MP2 will join the party as well. Logic: Good/bad?

River: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], UTG+1 bets, I muck, MP2 mucks

[Brom]

I think I would likely just call on the turn. If he does have an ace (which is most likely IMO), there is next to no chance of him folding it. Furthermore, you don't want to chase out your implied odds behind you. Lastly, you want him to bet into you again if your draw gets there on the river. If you take the initiative from him on the turn, then you are going to make less bets overall on the times when you do hit, yet lose more when you don't.

[piggity]

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Overall, a great table.

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FYP.

[DeeJ]

I like it. You should get the bets in at the turn to increase the size of the pot, since you are going to fold any non-flush/straight river.... yet your opponents will be at least calling a bet and maybe as you say, putting in more than 1 bet if encouraged.

[Dazarath]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero is UTG + 2. Table is loose, passive preflop, with very little raising unless they are playing with tier one hands. On the flop, table is moderately less passive, though players have been calling flop raises with two overcards and no draws. Overall, an awful table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope by awful, you mean the play is awful and you're happy to be there.

[ QUOTE ]
I like it. You should get the bets in at the turn to increase the size of the pot, since you are going to fold any non-flush/straight river.... yet your opponents will be at least calling a bet and maybe as you say, putting in more than 1 bet if encouraged.

[/ QUOTE ]

With 12 outs to the nuts (or close to it), it's going to take more than 2 opponents for the raise to be +EV. This is assuming that UTG will fold close to never, which seems to be the case.

The players were all awful, the pots were beaaaauuuuuutiful.

[lil feller]

I'm confused. Are UTG and UTG+1 the same guy and you just labled them wrong (meaning UTG folded preflop?) I think thats how i'm reading it meaning that 3 of you saw the turn card, right? If thats the case, I think your read was right, but you're play was wrong. You have 12 outs, so raising the turn is -EV, even if MP2 calls both bets cold. You need to hit to win this hand, so just call the turn bet. If MP2 raises and UTG+1 calls, then I might consider 3 betting, but mostly just to encourage even more gambling later (I hate being perceived as a 'rock' in a game like this).

Now for some house keeping issues.

"UTG bets, Hero reraises..."
No you didn't, you raised. re-raised implies a 3rd bet.

"I have an outside flush draw and outside straight draw"
We call this 'backdoor', as you need running cards to hit, i've never seen 'outside' used this way before, maybe i'm to old...

lastly for online hands check out the converter. It will read your hand histories and post them in a very fluid and easy to ready fashion. you can find it here.

welcome to the forum, and gl at the tables [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

lf