Maybe interesting turn decision

sy_or_bust · #1 11-05-2005, 09:21 PM

I thought this was creative and good, but I'd appreciate your thoughts. MP is an ABC weak-tight player who in my experience really likes to fold. SB is an amazing loose-passive playing nearly every hand and seeing the turn/river with any excuse. My plan was to fold a better hand from MP a fair % of the time, especially since my AQ-high is usually better than SB. If I succeed, I can take a free SD UI.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP calls, SB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, MP raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP bets, SB calls, Hero raises

The K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] seemed like a great card to try this on - if you like it on this card, do you like it on any turn card?

Nemmy · #2 11-05-2005, 09:35 PM

Looks to me that you're trying to represent AKs or KK (from the eyes of a weak player). A more advanced player would think that you were attempting to set a trap by just smooth-calling the raise when you had the AK of clubs for the nuts.

Seems to me that you were either in a very loose game, or the SB thought you were just stealing his blind. It's very possible that the MP or SB has a low suited connector or random suited cards (in clubs) and are too stubborn to fold. Either way, I like this play. The MP, though, being what looks like tight-passive, could very well have "20" (two face cards) in clubs, and have you drawing to either a jack or another club. Still, I like the raise you put in here.

Lmn55d · #3 11-05-2005, 09:35 PM

I'd 3bet the flop for value. I don't like the turn raise because MP's gonna have some sort of draw a lot and now that the pot is fairly big he's gonna see the river fairly frequently I think. SB, since he's loose-passive, could have a pair here as well. If you want to make a play at the pot, I think you're better off just betting the turn instead of going for a checkraise. A protected pot checkraise looks stronger, but once you checkraise two people the pot is fairly large and anyone holding any semblance of a draw will call. An even better way of generating folding equity against the weak-tight is probably to 3bet the flop and go from there, which I think you should have done (for value) anyway.

sy_or_bust · #4 11-05-2005, 09:50 PM

I normally 3-bet the flop for value. I thought, in this specific situation, my line might be more useful. This is how I saw it during the hand:

1) MP might be raising for a free card.
2) MP might be raising a J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] type hand.

If I 3-bet the flop, I take control and gain some EV, but I'm vulnerable to a turn raise and I will have a hard time winning unimproved.

If I call, and MP takes a free card, this is a fine result (agree?). If MP bets, he never has the lone club and always has a made hand. He may have a redraw, though I think he's more likely to just call the flop with a decent redraw. If I raise this bet, he'll fold a lot of hands with the reasoning "BB probably has me crushed already, and if not he will often draw out on me."

So when MP bets the turn, I am never ahead, and forcing a better hand to fold is valuable. Do you really think donking the turn or 3-betting the flop carries the same fold equity?

Lmn55d · #5 11-05-2005, 11:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I normally 3-bet the flop for value. I thought, in this specific situation, my line might be more useful. This is how I saw it during the hand:

1) MP might be raising for a free card.
2) MP might be raising a JT type hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems that these are good reasons to 3bet. Your equity against these 2 players will usually be pretty good. Since MP is weak-tight, he probably won't 3bet you too often or rasie the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
If I call, and MP takes a free card, this is a fine result (agree?).

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, if he takes a free card your flop equity was probably pretty solid and you should have 3bet.

[ QUOTE ]
So when MP bets the turn, I am never ahead, and forcing a better hand to fold is valuable. Do you really think donking the turn or 3-betting the flop carries the same fold equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

Donking the turn doesn't need to carry the same fold equity. YOu are investing half as much so it needs to work half as often. If you checkraise, the pot will be 3BB bigger than if you donked, making a call more attractive from your opponents' perspective. If he's weak-tight he won't raise you very often. Also, he'd probably bet fairly often when you check, unless he's on a draw or is scared of a checkraise. If he's weak-tight enough to check with a pair, I think there's a good chance he'd fold to the donk.