QQ Hand

[Boris]

Since we've decided that $40-$80 counts as "high limit", here goes...

I'm posting this because Mike l. gave me a ton of grief about the hand.

B&M 40-80 game. The game is medicore. There's only one really bad player and the rest are passive nits. There's one New Guy (NG) to my immediate right who I sense is taking a shot at a higher limit, but I'm not sure. He hasn't won any pots and is slowly getting nitted to death. He's on his second buy-in.

5 players limp and I complete in the Small Blind with QQ.

Flop: Jd-5c-3h

I check. Solid Player (SP) bets, NG calls, I call and the Live One calls. NG made a weird spazzy motion when he called. My read was that he wanted to raise but then didn't.

Turn: Jd-5c-3h (8h)

All check to the NG, who bets. I raise and it's folded back to NG. NG 3 bets. Eff me. After some thought I decided to call.

River: Jd-5c-3h (8h) (3d).

I check.

Comments?

[haakee]

Tell me this was not you who had QQ here.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Tell me this was not you who had QQ here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[mike l.]

it was him with the QQ already.

anyway what i said was preflop obviously we raise most of the time but calling sometimes is okay. remember, it's the play sklansky likes, let's not go into why it's still better to raise, bottom line is calling can have it's merit.

flop is clearly a disaster but boris had his reasons. for me the play from the sb into such a large field on such a drawless board is bet in hopes of being able to 3 bet. save the c/r for when you have a gutshot heavy board and want to get those gutter balls out. after you bet if someone else 3 bets for you flat call so you can c/r that guy on the turn is the play. anyway bet-3 bet is significantly better than c/r here imo because of the texture of this board: i.e. it's super safe and good for QQ, plus the pot is too small you need to add some beef to it and that's more important than trying to clear out the field. plus remember they cant read your hand, you flat called preflop. so a pair of Js will give you too much action.

given the flop smooth call, on the turn the play is to donk bet and hope someone raises so you can 3 bet.

hope this helps.

oh one more thing: 40-80 is NOT high stakes lol, who decided that? HS should be 80 and up.

[Boris]

Good analysis.

[J_V]

I think almost anytime you slowplay a big pair preflop, your best play is to lead/3-bet, over check-raising. Waiting to the turn with this mainly players is a disaster.

I think you may have been thinking one street at a time in this hand and ran yourself into a pickle. That is usually how I get myself into these messes - and it almost always happens when I'm in unfamiliar territory (in this case - a five way limped pot) w/ QQ.

[ggbman]

I think raising preflop and pushing your equity edge is the correct play. Given that you didn't, like bet/3betting the flop followed by check-raising. I don't like the check call, you likely have the best hand and want some value and to shut out people in a multiway pot.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I think almost anytime you slowplay a big pair preflop, your best play is to lead/3-bet, over check-raising. Waiting to the turn with this mainly players is a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was about to make a post in this thread like i did w/ TT post but i saw you make a post and wanted to read it first. this is exactly what i was thinking. and i think you're dead on. checking the flop here given the preflop play is no goot.

[ QUOTE ]

I think you may have been thinking one street at a time in this hand and ran yourself into a pickle. That is usually how I get myself into these messes - and it almost always happens when I'm in unfamiliar territory (in this case - a five way limped pot) w/ QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

again, dead on. when you travel in unchartered waters, you make more mistakes even if your initial decision to chart into those waters was good. the inclusion of your possible mistakes given unconventional play is necessary. so boris, if you were going to play a perfect flop like this the way you did, you need to raise pf imo.

Barron

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
anyway what i said was preflop obviously we raise most of the time but calling sometimes is okay. remember, it's the play sklansky likes, let's not go into why it's still better to raise, bottom line is calling can have it's merit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sklansky said that it's OK not to raise QQ in the big blind after multiple limpers (although I raise it every time). I don't think he's ever advocated just completing the small blind with QQ.

[mike l.]

"Sklansky said that it's OK not to raise QQ in the big blind after multiple limpers (although I raise it every time). I don't think he's ever advocated just completing the small blind with QQ."

dude it's almost the same concept. he will think completing is right for the same reasons.