Aggressive vs Passive options (3 hands)

toby · #1 03-22-2005, 09:31 PM

Hand 1) Passive

Villain (SB) is LA-P after 65 hands. Nothing particularly notable has happened with him that I can recall.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB calls, MP2 calls.
Flush draw fairly easy call. Argument against raising for a free card - a Queen with 3-bet it, charging me the most money to draw.
Turn: (6.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, SB calls, MP2 calls, CO folds.
Straightforward
River: (9.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls.
This betting pattern screams AQ to me, especially given SB's generally passive postflop play. Raising my flush, which I would do normally, gaurantees being 3-bet if he does have AQ, or AA.
Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Hand 2: Aggressive

MP1 is TA-N after 116 hands. MP2 is new to the table.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 3 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.
standard, I think
Turn: (4 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP2 caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls.
After the cap, I get worried that I'm behind. However, I felt fine about 3-betting and like that MP1 is along for the ride.
River: (16 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.
standard
Final Pot: 18 BB

My question on this hand is 3-betting the flush draw on the turn. (After the cap, I think I can safely discount the value of my top pair) With only 2 other players 3-betting is probably not for value. Is this play okay, or a long-term leak?

Last Hand
Aggressive

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, CO folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls.
first thought is to raise and clear the field. However, there are only two worse aces than mine, and a better one is not folding. the only draws i would push out are a 79s OESD or something like that. Since there are no overcards to my ace, would it be better to just call this one down?
Turn: (5.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls.
one player, checking to me, i think there is no way a don't bet here
River: (7.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks.
however, I check behind here because I would figure him to have something like A5, which beats me. He wont fold a better hand.
Final Pot: 7.50 BB

ArturiusX · #2 03-22-2005, 09:42 PM

I think I play all the same, except I might value bet the river on the final hand. Although kicker is a concern, I think anyone with an ace would show more aggression. 2 is a very blank card and I can't see anyone with the ace checking twice unless hes REALLY passive.

I think you'll see K8 and the like enough times to make the value bet worth it.

droolie · #3 03-22-2005, 09:57 PM

Hand 1: I totally disagree that SB villian has AQ. I raise the river every time. Even the most passive players will usually raise before the river when they flop trips with top kicker. (If he had AQ he totally butchered it)

Hand 2: Raise pf. The rest looks fine.

Hand 3: It's close but I think you can value bet the river. He'll call with many hands you beat.

edited to say that If we are behind it's usually to AA here...

FishHooks · #4 03-22-2005, 11:34 PM

hand 1: raise the river
hand 2: unlike the other guy i dont think you should raise preflop unless you had a lot more limpers
Hand 3: bet river for value

themflags · #5 03-23-2005, 01:09 AM

Hand 1 -- seemed fine. I think 87s may not be strong enough to give others too much incentive to see a showdown. It's a fine line, but if you're ahead of an opponent, but not by much, making the pot bigger gives him more incentive to stay and draw out on you. I wouldn't raise post-flop. Post-river neither, since you may be right about AQ (or a higher flush).

Hand 2 -- I think the 3-bet is too aggressive. Notice that after this, nobody folded -- the pot was big enough to justify paying that little bit more to see what the next card would bring them. Most of the time, a card this favorable to you (A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) would not drop, making that 3-bet expensive. An A, K, J, 9, or 8 (non-diamond) could give someone a straight. An A or K could give someone a higher pair. And a heart could be giving someone else a flush. Since no one was going to fold, why make it more expensive for yourself?

Hand 3 -- I like the raise to clear the field. And it seemed to! Although his post-flop bet should alert you to a possibility he has a better A, maybe he had Q8, or something like that. And since he checked, it may indicate his vulnerability. Maybe he has an A with a better kicker, but I still think you're better off heads-up here than to allow straight draws and set draws to get by cheaply.

toby · #6 03-23-2005, 01:30 AM

Pretty good reads by the first 4 posters...
Hand 1: Villain had a surprisingly crappy A9o, MHIG. Not sure why I felt so strongly that he had AQ, just seeing monsters under the bed I guess. Definitely raising that from now on.

Hand 2: Villain had 55, so hit his set on the turn after a very questionable flop call. I still will 3-bet this, but that cap definitely indicates I am behind.

Hand 3: Villain turns up A3 so we split the pot. (AAJ86). I should have considered K8 or Q8 and value bet this hand...was too concerned about being behind a slightly strong ace.

imported_legoman · #7 03-23-2005, 02:14 AM

Another hand...
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero...?

Rest of the hand:

Hero checks.

River: (5 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero folds, SB 3-bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB
SB shows QK
UTG+1 shows AQ


Should I check behind on the turn and call 1 bet on the river or bet the turn?

toby · #8 03-23-2005, 01:30 PM

There is no real draw on that board, so they should be calling with a made hand. If they are loose callers, they could have a PP (discounting AA-QQ bc of no pfr) you only lose to TT and JJ. However with 2 people in the hand, the chance that a Q is out there is better, and they are just waiting to pop you on a bigger street, so I like the check behind.

Call one bet if your opponent is loose and would bluff there, but if he's tight then I would probably give him credit for a Q (missed checkraise on the turn) and fold.