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  #1  
Old 12-13-2005, 11:36 AM
Phishy McFish Phishy McFish is offline
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Default Results not important, please critique flop and turn play

I raise a lot (loose/maniac/smart LAG....whatever). So I know the first responses will be "Keep playing this way pre flop, but let me know when and where." So feel free....but if I can get some suggestions on how I should have played this after the flop differently, I'd appreciate it. I actually get top set with Js 2 hands later against the same guy and pot the flop at him again, though this time he folds. My thinking then and now is the major value of being so aggressive/loose is that people won't respect my bets as much and I can bet made hands. Is this wrong?

Paradise Poker Pot-Limit Omaha High, $1 BB (9 handed) converter

MP3 ($84.75)
CO ($427.25)
Hero ($610.50)
SB ($166.50)
BB ($315.00)
UTG ($278.75)
UTG+1 ($205.50)
MP1 ($137.25)
MP2 ($134.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1. UTG+1 posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 (poster) checks, MP1 calls $2, MP2 calls $2, MP3 calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $7.5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $5.50, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls $5.50, MP2 calls $5.50, MP3 calls $5.50.

Flop: ($41.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $41.5</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls $41.50, MP2 folds, MP3 folds.

Turn: ($124.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $88.25</font>, Hero calls $88.25.

(I am pretty damn sure he made a straight here, but feel I need to call at this point)

River: ($301) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: $301

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP1 has 8s 3s 5d 7d (straight, seven high).

Outcome: Hero wins $301. </font>
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  #2  
Old 12-13-2005, 11:42 AM
Tilt Tilt is offline
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Default Re: Results not important, please critique flop and turn play

Really only the preflop play is worth discussing here. With position I like reraising with more than AA if you are pretty sure the first raise isnt coming from AA and there aren't a binch of short stacks around to foil your plans.

Flop is standard. On the turn you are getting just under the 3:1 that you need to call, so if there really is any chance he doesn't have the straight its an easy call.
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  #3  
Old 12-13-2005, 11:50 AM
Phishy McFish Phishy McFish is offline
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Default Re: Results not important, please critique flop and turn play

OK. Thanks.

So I shouldn't have tried to milk it more on the flop to get more callers?
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  #4  
Old 12-13-2005, 12:17 PM
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Default Re: Results not important, please critique flop and turn play

[ QUOTE ]
So I shouldn't have tried to milk it more on the flop to get more callers?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever you do, you have to be consistent with your bets when you do and don't have actual hands. If you are potting lots of flops with air and making weaker bets with made hands, observant opponents will take notice and adjust their play accordingly.

With regards to this specfic board, I don't think a weaker flop bet would have helped much. Your pre-flop action helped narrow down the hand range preflop, such that most people here hold a bunch of high cards. Given the rainbow flop, the only opponents that you are getting action from are those that called with a small-middle runs hoping to snap off aces. (This is assuming that you aren't betting so weak as to give someone odds to hit their two-outers on you.)

Additionally, if your opponents have marked you with A-A-x-x ot K-K-x-x, you can get a lot of action from even bottom two here. Considering this, and the fact that MP1 bet the turn with his case chips, the turn call is a no brainer (as Tilt already mentioned).
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  #5  
Old 12-13-2005, 12:33 PM
Phishy McFish Phishy McFish is offline
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Default Re: Results not important, please critique flop and turn play

[ QUOTE ]


Additionally, if your opponents have marked you with A-A-x-x ot K-K-x-x, you can get a lot of action from even bottom two here. Considering this, and the fact that MP1 bet the turn with his case chips, the turn call is a no brainer (as Tilt already mentioned).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why I potted it because my thinking is I represented KKxx or AAxx and I could get action from someone thinking I am over playing them post flop. Unfortunately this is because I sometimes may do this on a board of this type (which I see as being almost as safe as possible for AAxx and KKxx)
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  #6  
Old 12-13-2005, 12:34 PM
DRKEVDC DRKEVDC is offline
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Default Re: Results not important, please critique flop and turn play

Would someone mind explaining to me how the turn is an automatic call, I think that I am screwing up the math. OP has 10 outs, 3 3's, 4's 6's or the 1 jack. He knows what 10 cards are, the 4 he holds the 4 on the board and the 2 cards he is pretty sure the villian has. Given this he has 10 outs out of 42. How does getting 3:1 justify the auto call?
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  #7  
Old 12-13-2005, 12:41 PM
Phishy McFish Phishy McFish is offline
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Default Re: Results not important, please critique flop and turn play

I'm guessing the chance that the villian could have been playing a lower set or 2 pair combined with the pot odds to call even if they have exactly what I suspected they had (the made str8) is the answer. But I posed the original question so I'll let those more qualified give the reliable reply to this.
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  #8  
Old 12-13-2005, 12:55 PM
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Default Re: Results not important, please critique flop and turn play

[ QUOTE ]
Would someone mind explaining to me how the turn is an automatic call, I think that I am screwing up the math. OP has 10 outs, 3 3's, 4's 6's or the 1 jack. He knows what 10 cards are, the 4 he holds the 4 on the board and the 2 cards he is pretty sure the villian has. Given this he has 10 outs out of 42. How does getting 3:1 justify the auto call?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you are screwing up the math. If you could only see 2 of the your opponents hole cards and they indicated a made straight on the turn, the long term +EV decision would be to fold here. You have a ~24% chance of winning the pot and are putting in ~29% of the chips in order to do so with little in implied odds. (Your opponent is likely to check/fold any board pair, assuming he had more money for a river bet.)

However, if you open up your opponents hand range here to include two pair or a lower set, you only need him to have such hands a relatively small percentage of the time to turn this slightly -EV situation into a slighly +EV situation overall.

Also, the fact that you can't make any more "bad" decisions on the river, where the equity extremes are obviously the greatest also makes this an easier play, IMO.
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  #9  
Old 12-13-2005, 01:03 PM
jhall23 jhall23 is offline
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Default Re: Results not important, please critique flop and turn play

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Additionally, if your opponents have marked you with A-A-x-x ot K-K-x-x, you can get a lot of action from even bottom two here. Considering this, and the fact that MP1 bet the turn with his case chips, the turn call is a no brainer (as Tilt already mentioned).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why I potted it because my thinking is I represented KKxx or AAxx and I could get action from someone thinking I am over playing them post flop. Unfortunately this is because I sometimes may do this on a board of this type (which I see as being almost as safe as possible for AAxx and KKxx)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your fine with this. Since everybody checked and you have the button you should bet as they probably expect you too after a pre-flop raise and safe board. With so many to the flop it really up's your chances of someone thinking they are going to be trapping you with an underset you can get heads up with. The pot bet should narrow down the field the help achieve this.

I think this is in general a safe board for AA/KK and will bet it, but often not into a field of 4. Usually only if there are only 1 or 2 others in unless I have great reads they fold alot. With a field this large if the turn comes a K or an A it could turn out good for you if someone wiffed a c/r on the flop. Plus if it get's checked around 2 you a second time on a blank it's very unlikely they have anything and a bet there will win it.
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  #10  
Old 12-13-2005, 06:54 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Results not important, please critique flop and turn play

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the fact that you can't make any more "bad" decisions on the river, where the equity extremes are obviously the greatest also makes this an easier play, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although this is an advantage when you are allin before the river and can't be bluffed out or forced to make a bad call when a scare card comes on the river, this isn't the case here because the bad card already came.

The fact is it is too easy to justify making bad money odds calls with reasoning like he might have only had two pair and is now representing the straight, when the more often case is that he is simply protecting his hand he just made (LAGs can be an exception). This is especially the case because most players with even bottom 2 would have checkraised the flop versus a preflop raiser. The action in the hand gives you the best reads ususally.

So all that being the case, even if the villain himself called the flop with inadequate odds to make a draw, once he has made it, are you always going to make a bigger mistake by calling with so few outs? In this case the hero supplied the implied odds to the villain, but the villain has nothing left to supply implied odds to hero for improving his hand. Thus the call can only be correct if hero could have such a good read that the majority of the time the villain would not have a straight. I don't believe this will be true though for the reasons I gave above.
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