Trying to understand "partial outs"

[themflags]

I am currently reading SSH, and I'm trying to understand how to count outs, especially partial outs. To me, it sometimes makes sense to count flush outs and overcard outs as partial, but then sometimes not. For example:

My pocket -- K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Flop -- Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I can see the OESD, so I'm thinking that's eight outs right there. Beyond that, I do not know if any of the other potential outs deserves consideration. For example, I have three [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]s, but my only flush comes with four [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]s on the board -- isn't this kinda scary? Also, can I really give any thought to a K appearing on the turn or river, since even though it would give me top pair, it would also help someone else's straight? If I should consider any [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]s or Ks, how much are they worth (certainly they are not full outs).

Bottom Line -- How many outs are there? Eight outs, right? Maybe 8.1?

[AncientPC]

Think of a partial out as a dirty out, in other words you might have the best hand but does not give you the nuts.

If an A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] comes you make nut straight, but then there's a flush on board.

The other 3 A's will give you the nuts.

K can give you top pair, but it can also give nut straight to AT and if it's K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] then flush is on board.

If a T comes it doesn't really help you at all, and can give either AK the nut straight or K9 or 98 a straight.

3x A (non heart) = 3 outs
3x 9 = 3 outs
2x K (non heart) = 1 outs
A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or K:heart = .75 outs

I get 7.75 outs, but it's close enough.

[derick]

[ QUOTE ]
I am currently reading SSH, and I'm trying to understand how to count outs, especially partial outs. To me, it sometimes makes sense to count flush outs and overcard outs as partial, but then sometimes not. For example:

My pocket -- K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Flop -- Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I can see the OESD, so I'm thinking that's eight outs right there. Beyond that, I do not know if any of the other potential outs deserves consideration. For example, I have three [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]s, but my only flush comes with four [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]s on the board -- isn't this kinda scary? Also, can I really give any thought to a K appearing on the turn or river, since even though it would give me top pair, it would also help someone else's straight? If I should consider any [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]s or Ks, how much are they worth (certainly they are not full outs).

Bottom Line -- How many outs are there? Eight outs, right? Maybe 8.1?

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally I count a 3 flush as worth 1.5 outs, but in this case I might hedge it since you are not drawing to the nut flush so I'd say it's worth 1 out?

You have 4 clean 9's and 3 slightly dirty aces. 2 slightly dirty K's are outs if you think a pair of K's will hold up so I might call the 3 K's 1 out? Runner Runner 10's are probably not worth an out. So I'd say you have 7-9 outs?

[helpmeout]

A = 3.5
9 = 3.5
K = 1-1.5

When a heart hits you wont always be against a flush so give them about .5 each.

Same with the king it might give someone a straight but probably not, it also might give someone 2 pair.

So I say 8-8.5 outs, probably closer to 8.