A8s turn bluff

Derek123 · #1 11-30-2005, 12:03 PM

Villian in this hand is slightly loose pf and quite aggressive postflop. Something like 35/20/2.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, 1 fold, Button raises, Hero calls, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks, Button checks.

Turn: (4 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks, Button bets, Hero raises

MAxx · #2 11-30-2005, 02:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villian in this hand is slightly loose pf and quite aggressive postflop. Something like 35/20/2.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, 1 fold, Button raises, Hero calls, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks, Button checks.

Turn: (4 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks, Button bets, Hero raises

[/ QUOTE ]

May work. But when I see this action I think a turn lead looks more natural. If you are trying to rep a K for example you would be saying that you wiffed on the flop cr attempt. If you actually had the K after your flop whiff, you would most likely lead the turn as free cards are not good here and not much interest has been shown yet. If I saw your play and respected you as a good player, I don't think I could put you on a K here.

Derek123 · #3 11-30-2005, 03:32 PM

yeah, the plan was to just to just check-fold. When villian bet the turn after checking through the flop it seemed that he either was retarded and checked through a monster on the flop, or had a hand that didnt like the board. I wasnt sure if my play looked too odd that he calls down with a mid pp or better Ace.

Zele · #4 11-30-2005, 04:39 PM

I don't like the risk/reward in a pot this size against the player you've described. Plus you have to deal with the off chance MP has been sandbagging or has some crap value he'll call down with.

#5 11-30-2005, 04:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, the plan was to just to just check-fold. When villian bet the turn after checking through the flop it seemed that he either was retarded and checked through a monster on the flop, or had a hand that didnt like the board. I wasnt sure if my play looked too odd that he calls down with a mid pp or better Ace.

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If you thought he bluffed why didnt you just call down. A high can be good on that board.

StellarWind · #6 11-30-2005, 05:38 PM

This is an attempt to eliminate the field and leave you heads up versus a weaker hand on the button. Because of the gutshots I don't see you eliminating any stronger button hand except possibly A9/A8. AQ/AT will call you down with a mixture of outs and distrust. Low pockets would have bet the flop.

I don't agree with the argument that you wouldn't play a king this way. It makes reasonable sense to check the turn in expectation that someone will make a play for this pot. At least it does against the right people.

Which brings up the problem of having three villains and only one read. It's really important to understand what the people behind us are doing. Are they broke because they checked? Does that mean they will fold now? Will 55 or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] be giving up?

I think this play has a fair chance. My instinct is that Villain is going directly to jail when we see his hand because he is a 30/20 type on the button versus a single limper. Q8 comes to mind. He checked because he has no hand, no outs, and no bluff equity on this flop against three players.

mscags · #7 11-30-2005, 05:44 PM

I think that this kind of play can have some merit to it in the right situations. This however I don't think is one of those situations. I think you need a very good read on all of your opponents to try a play like this. I also would like this a lot more if it was more of a semi bluff with something like a flush draw or OESD. Doing this with just air puts you in a tough spot when someone calls and you blank the river. Are you taking one last stab at it? I like this play occasionaly to mix things up I just don't think this is a good spot for it.

Scags

MAxx · #8 11-30-2005, 08:25 PM

I considered but didnt elaborate on it, I agree with some of the rationale of this:

[ QUOTE ]
This is an attempt to eliminate the field and leave you heads up versus a weaker hand on the button. Because of the gutshots I don't see you eliminating any stronger button hand except possibly A9/A8. AQ/AT will call you down with a mixture of outs and distrust. Low pockets would have bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you could also eliminate some pockets, however b/c I do not dismiss that possiblily.

I was more aiming at the subject title in the sense of a bluff, and I disagree with this:

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with the argument that you wouldn't play a king this way. It makes reasonable sense to check the turn in expectation that someone will make a play for this pot. At least it does against the right people.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a poor way to play your Kx hand given the action up to this point. Betting will more likely get calls from hands that shouldnt call, you may get to 3bet, and the possibility of giving many (potentially dangerous) free cards is much more likely b/c of the flop action.

StellarWind · #9 11-30-2005, 08:40 PM

You could sometimes knock Button off a small pocket if he has a small pocket. I just don't see him having that hand very often because his flop check is terrible and not in keeping with the read.

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a poor way to play your Kx hand given the action up to this point. Betting will more likely get calls from hands that shouldnt call, you may get to 3bet, and the possibility of giving many (potentially dangerous) free cards is much more likely b/c of the flop action.

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This is a very good play if you use it at the right time. It would be rare to lose this pot with trip kings because you didn't bet. It requires a big parlay of 1) someone having outs, but 2) being willing to fold, 3) hitting those outs, and 4) no one else betting. Anyway you will just as often save the pot by confronting a gutshot with two bets.

The checkraise is good if you are reasonably sure someone will make a play at the pot. This is very dependent on reads but the necessary conditions often exist. Your very skepticism is an important asset because people are somewhat unwilling to believe you really have it.