Problematic KK hand

[Derek in NYC]

6/12 live game, full ring. The table is full of monkeys, differing only in the degree of their monkeyness. These guys play trash and can't read boards. Their play is generally passive, but can get aggressive if they think they're ahead--the problem is that they get aggressive on things like the idiot end of the str8 when there is a 4-flush showing, so it is very hard to put them on a hand. Monkey 2 can also get aggressive OOP with draws. Limpers 1 and 2 are so bad, I asked for a seat change in order to get position on them. The preflop re-raiser is a bit of an unknown, he hasn't stuck out much to me. The cold calling button is a monkey also, friends with limpers 1 and 2.

Hero holds K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG limper 1 calls, limper 2 calls, Hero raises, fold to mid/late position player who makes it 3 bets, button/monkey calls 3 cold, blinds fold, limper 1 calls, limper 2 calls, I re-raise, original 3 bettor calls, all monkeys call.

5 to the flop, 20SBs after the drop.

Flop comes 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Monkey 1 checks, monkey 2 bets, I raise, original 3-bettor calls, button calls, monkey 1 folds, monkey 2 calls.

4 to the turn, 14BBs in the pot.

Board is (6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Monkey 2 bets, I raise, original 3-bettor folds, button calls, monkey 2 re-raises, I fold.

Im generally not a fan of the raise-but-fold-to-reraise line, but I thought that here the play made sense. Any thoughts?

[thesharpie]

I call the flop to wait for the turn. This is the second time I've posted waiting for the turn to raise but I think it's actually the best line this time. Your equity increases a helluva lot when a safe turn card falls, you can also protect your hand if #2 leads into you again on the turn if the preflop raiser doesn't [censored] it up.

I don't like raising the turn the way this played out. I'd rather call to see where I'm at and fold to a raise.

I think the flop raise is fine - the turn raise, I don't understand.

After your pre-flop raise, you have shown strength - you show even more with the flop raise - then the turn is a bad card for you because

a) all that is needed is an 8 to beat you
b) you have lost your backdoor flush draw

Now, you have to figure that there is a good chance at this point that you are beat - and given your reads, you should know that you are not going to bluff monkey 2 off his hand.

So why raise?

monkey 2 saw your flop bet and still came out betting on the turn. You have to figure there is a very strong chance that the turn made his hand.

Think of it this way - by raising, you cost yourself 2 bets on the turn against a hand that is probably beating you - if you were willing to spend two bets, why not call and see the river?

[Brunger]

Pot is to big to protect your hand on the flop therefore you should wait and raise a safe turn card. I would raise anything but a T,5, or 8. You are put in a tough spot on the turn I would rather call twice than raise and fold to a 3-bet although I think folding right away is probably best,given if he has a str8 we are dead, unless the guy is so crazy that showdown is a must.

[Aeioux]

I didn't know monkey's played poker, and played poker so well for, well....a monkey [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Derek in NYC]

I agree that on the turn I am likely behind the monkey leading the betting (although Im not even certain about this). If Im behind, I could be buried (against a str8), thin (against a set), or have decent outs (against two pair). On the other hand, Monkey is erratic enough that I could also be ahead of him (though admittedly this is less likely, and I'd have to put him on a flush or str8 draw, or less likely, a strangely played hand like JJ).

So the purpose of the raise was more aimed at the original three-bettor and the monkey on the button. Obviously, flush draws arent folding, and probably OESDs arent either. However, my thinking was that, although individually they are all likely to be drawing thin (2 outers or 3 outers or maybe 4 out gutshots), collectively they could represent as many as 4-6 outs against my overpair if I am ahead.

Faulty logic? Just call and try to see the river?

EDIT: Looking back, I do agree that raising this turn probably makes more sense.

[Brunger]

If you are ahead the probably have many more than 4-6 outs collectively but the originaly 3-bettor best probable drawing hand would be JJ or AQ [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and while you may be able to get JJ to fold I do not think that it is worth the price of raising and opening up to getting 3-bet and having to fold. Plus the fact the he often is drawing super slim with something like an ace overcard or an underpair and you don't mind him calling. Plus there is the fact that we are often behind here so giving free cards is far less of a mistake.

[Derek in NYC]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus the fact the he often is drawing super slim with something like an ace overcard or an underpair and you don't mind him calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the players behind me have two underpairs = 4 outs
If one of them has an ace = 3 outs
If one of them has a pair and ace = 5 outs
If one of them has a JQ (unlikely but not impossible for the button to hold) = 4 outs

Obviously, club and spade draws have a buttload of outs and aren't folding. But the thought was that raising 4th street could, if I was by some chance ahead of monkey 1, knock out people drawing live (with other than flush/OESDs) against my KK.

[Brunger]

I thought that there was only the 3-bettor still in after the flop and now that I see that there are 2 people left behind us I am certainly folding to the lead out. Your reasoning for raising is good and you do want them to fold those hands which is why in pots this big it is sometimes best to wait for the turn to do it and hopefully it's the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Here I think that it is so likely that we are behind and drawing dead that folding the turn is best but I like the raise if the guy is a true maniac and there is a good chance we have the best hand.

[Derek in NYC]

The river was a red 8. Monkey 1 tables 45o and the monkey on the button tables A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. They chop. I spend the next 30 minutes wondering if I should have peeled on 4th street instead of raising.