Q8s to a raise

#1 12-09-2005, 12:09 AM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Villian is semi-loose aggressive, 20.8 vpip, agro 3.4 over about 100 hands.

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, Button (Villian)/ raises, SB calls, 1 fold, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Late position at a loose table with one limper is this a hand worth raising with? My aggro is only about 1.2 and I'm looking for situations to increase it. Villians range of hands for a pfr is probably 99 and up, my original thought is a big ace. I figure my hand is too good to fold to one bet since I'm already in the pot.

Flop: (8 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Villian bets, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop is ragged enough that I think my overcard may be good. Also, my understanding is that it is almost never correct to fold to a bet on the flop in a raised pot.

Turn: (5 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Villian bets, Hero calls.

Picked up the flush draw, easy call?

River: (7 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Villian checks.

Final Pot: 7 BB

Yes, I was going to C/R, although he probably would have called a bet. Caught some greif on this hand afterwards and thought my reasoning was good. Was it?

#2 12-09-2005, 12:13 AM

Grunch

Fold preflop. Fold the flop.

(Edit: I mean fold instead of limping--after limping calling one bet back to you is OK.)

ackid · #3 12-09-2005, 12:19 AM

Fold preflop.

ajm36 · #4 12-09-2005, 12:45 AM

You need more callers to call with this hand (probably 4 already in). Your reasoning on the flop is flawed and this pot is small--you should definitely fold here. Summary: fold PF, fold the flop.

Eeegah · #5 12-09-2005, 01:21 AM

Dude, man...dude.

Q8s isn't even a hand worth calling with, let alone considering a raise. It's barely ahead of any two, and dead even at best with even the absolute loosest fish's hand. Barely ahead hands lose money, and this has no business seeing the flop.

[ QUOTE ]

Flop is ragged enough that I think my overcard may be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be rude, but this is a sure sign that you really don't understand how poker works. Pick up a beginner's book (Any of the beginner books here will do, and learn how counting outs work. Then come back and laugh at this post.

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Also, my understanding is that it is almost never correct to fold to a bet on the flop in a raised pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who told you this? I want names, so I can refer him/her to people I don't like.

tyler_cracker · #6 12-09-2005, 03:57 AM

I agree with everyone else that you shouldn't even make it to the river, but since you did, you have to bet it. That board is super scary to villain, and he could easily have unimproved overcards. Just bet.

Also, if you're going to play this hand here, you need to raise preflop. Limping sux0rz. Folding is best, as i'm sure you know now.

#7 12-09-2005, 10:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Q8s isn't even a hand worth calling with, let alone considering a raise. It's barely ahead of any two, and dead even at best with even the absolute loosest fish's hand. Barely ahead hands lose money, and this has no business seeing the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I'm fairly sure I mis-remembered the starting hand chart on this one to play it in the first place. I'm trying to use the chart less and my memory more.

[ QUOTE ]
Who told you this? I want names, so I can refer him/her to people I don't like.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm fairly sure it was on this board or SSHE. Of course it probably applied to a better range of hands...

Guthrie · #8 12-09-2005, 03:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm fairly sure it was on this board or SSHE. Of course it probably applied to a better range of hands...

[/ QUOTE ]
The SSHE loose chart does say to play Q8s in late position, but its definition of loose is 6-8 players on the flop. This squares with the advice you've already been given. If you assume both blinds will come along, you need at least three limpers ahead of you. You'll make it four, and the blinds will make it six. Even then you're on the low end of loose.

The value of Q8s is having a lot of limpers to put money in the pot PF, then you hope to hit your flush or straight against a lot of players feeding a big pot. If you miss the flop, then it's not worth much, since many of those same limpers will now already have you beat with overcards.

Q8s may also have some steal value as it's slightly better than a random hand, so you might want it heads up or against six opponents, but not against three or four.

Someone feel free to jump on this if I completely missed it.

#9 12-09-2005, 04:17 PM

I'm being too literal with that chart and not learning what hands are marginal with fewer players. Probably time to do some more studying of SSHE. Thanks for the input.

#10 12-09-2005, 05:17 AM

Looking to increase your aggro? Don't look for situations, let them come to you. Q8s is not a good raising hand here. If it was folded to you, I would throw out a raise hoping to steal it, but with one limper I won't, and I won't most definately limp with it, but since you did...

Flop: How can you say your overcard here is good when you put villain on 99+? I would be somewhat paranoid about that.

Turn: Call is fine.

River: BET!!!

Oh and besides, "I figure my hand is too good to fold to one bet since I'm already in the pot." Don't put yourself in that situation then with a hand like Q8s.