Am I the only one who sucks at hand reading?

Atropos · #1 08-05-2005, 10:43 AM

Party Poker (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with XX
3 folds
Hero raises to 6$, Button calls

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players).
- 15$ Pot
Hero bets 10$, Button calls

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
- 35$ Pot
Hero checks, Button bets 20$, Hero raises to 60$, Button calls

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
- 155$ Pot
???? I have 141.80$ behind, Button has me covered
My actual hand is meaningless, but it is so weak it cant win when called and it cant win when the hand is checked down...
Like T6o

OK some history:
This hand is from 1tabling 200$ NL 6-max on party. I sometimes 1table and play very laggy to improve my reads.
I often get in difficult situations like these, where I have to decide whether to bluff all-in or check and lose guaranteed... But thats the idea behind it.

Button: I have only 55 hands on him in Pokertracker
VPIP 29.09, PFR 5.45, A_Tot 3.35
He never coldcalled a preflop-raise before that hand...
I've only seen 4 showdown hands of him:
- 2 BB Ace-Rag, where it got checked down
- One AKo hand: He raised to 6$ from the SB preflop, 1 caller; Flop QT3, 14$ pot, he bets 10$ into it and checks it down after that, Final Board: T3Q9K, 3 hearts
- One JTo hand: He limps UTG and then calls a preflop minraise... Flop: J87, 22$ Pot; He bets 5$ into 4 other players, 2 callers
Turn: J872 ragged, He bets 5$ again, 2 callers
River: J8726 ragged, He checks it down and wins

MY table image:
Like I said I'm lagging it up...
VPIP: 34.55, PFR: 23.64, betting around 50% of all flops
- I already got caught on an awful looking bluff, where I had raised T2o preflop from button, bet pot on flop, checked the turn, and raised a small river bet: He had hit a quite good hidden two pair and called it down...
- The session has been unlucky to this point; I think I correctly folded AA 2times and KK 1 time; I'm down 180$ in 45 hands... I have not won a single showdown

Possible timing tells:
Flop: He called my bet rather quickly

Turn: He didnt think much about betting, and called my reraise very quick. It felt like the donkeys who flush-draw or have weak top pair who just want to see the next card...

OK now you have the same information as me... For the mathematical minded: What range of hands do you put him on with what percentages? The intuitive players like me may just say if they push the river or not [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Or you could say, that in the internet, with so few hands against opponent, the general crazyness of even tight preflop players on party, it's impossible to tell what to do and one should just stick to 4tabling, hoping for sets, flushes, straights and safe overpairs.

toby · #2 08-05-2005, 10:50 AM

Not sure what you hope to accomplish here with a T-high. Check/fold and move on to the next hand. Him calling the big turn check-raise means he's got you beat and will almost certainly call the river.

[ QUOTE ]
I think I correctly folded AA 2times and KK 1 time; I'm down 180$ in 45 hands... I have not won a single showdown

[/ QUOTE ]

45 hands, 3 premium pairs, and all "correct folds" at 6-max? I have trouble believing that; maybe you should post those hands for review.

RiverFenix · #3 08-05-2005, 10:54 AM

What are you trying to represent with the turn c/r? If youre playing it like an overpair a turn lead river push is much better.
The turn c/r for that tiny amount only screws yourself since you are then forced to bluff the river if you want to winn

lange101 · #4 08-05-2005, 10:55 AM

Yeah, I agree with Toby. I think that considering your play with T2 and T6, you're ability to read hands is not as high as it could be. It sounds like you are bluffing a lot but playing like that is not going to earn you a lot of money because if they have something, they are going to call, if they don't, then they won't. Once your image gets really loose then their hand requirements against you will lower. This is where you should tighten up and play some monster hands really fast. You will likely get paid off quickly especially if you have shown that you will bluff with T2o. JMO. GL.

-101

djoyce003 · #5 08-05-2005, 11:02 AM

i'd go with the readers here....if your image is uber lag he's calling with any piece of this board...so a river bluff is likely not going to work and is going to cost you more money. Checking down here at least gives you some advertising...now that you have set up a loose image, tighten up a bit and play some big hands agressively....if you image was super lag though i'm wondering about the 3 premium pairs you folded...you could have been getting played back at by total garbage given your image.

Atropos · #6 08-05-2005, 11:03 AM

@toby:
"Not sure what you hope to accomplish here with a T-high."
Push all-in, if he folds it doesnt matter how good my hand was [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

"Him calling the big turn check-raise means he's got you beat and will almost certainly call the river."

This is too vague. This thread is only about hand reading when 1 tabling. "almost certainly" means nothing. What hand do you put him on, what hand do you honestly think he will call that river?

Atropos · #7 08-05-2005, 11:05 AM

<blockquote>In Antwort auf:<hr />
.if your image is uber lag he's calling with any piece of this board...so a river bluff is likely not going to work and is going to cost you more money

[/ QUOTE ]

No way I dont believe it. Normally a seemingly tight player like him does not call a 140$ push on the river with "any piece of the board". Though I had been lagging it up, I did not make any real stupid errors before this hand... The one time I got caught bluffing it was a rather tiny pot, its not like he thinks he is playing against a drunk maniac.

bingledork · #8 08-05-2005, 11:23 AM

Villian has a hand, either 55, 67, or JJ.
Either way, he takes you for a maniac and is calling you down. The turn check-raise looks like you're trying to blow him off his hand. Give up the pot because he's calling you down on the river.

djoyce003 · #9 08-05-2005, 11:26 AM

alright, you can't put him on a "hand" but you can put him on a range here.

first off, is this guy a total donkey, meaning would he call that turn checkraise with a diamond draw? I'm guessing no, but a missed draw would fold to your push and it likely would beat 10 high if he called but I don't think that's likely.

Given the action I think he could have 99 - JJ. He would almost certainly have reraised any other hand, especially against a lag. He would call a checkraise with these on that board as well. He could have trips, but I don't see him calling the raise with that. He could have a full house with a flopped or turned set and is letting you bet it for him. He could have just a pair of 8's, maybe a diamond draw with A8 that turned top pair, finally he could have 67 or something similar. The reason I put him on all these hands is that i'm assuming he's not a donk and is not chasing a naked diamond draw without at least a pair.

You said in your original post that you were playing super laggy but now you are retracting this a little. I had a guy at my table playing super laggy last night and people were calling him down with a pair of 8's on a JQ296 board...stuff like that so don't discount the fact that this guy will call because if he calls 60 on the turn, the ONLY thing that doesn't call that river push is a missed diamond draw. Personally I think you are behind here most likely to a straight or two pair (jj-99). I think he calls as you've been laggy he thinks you are on missed overs or a missed diamond draw which is also what the river push could look like.

Atropos · #10 08-05-2005, 11:28 AM

<blockquote>In Antwort auf:<hr />
Villian has a hand, either 55, 67, or JJ.
Either way, he takes you for a maniac and is calling you down. The turn check-raise looks like you're trying to blow him off his hand. Give up the pot because he's calling you down on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah thats the kind of post I want to see [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
It would be cool if you could include some percentages, in my opinion overpair like JJ,TT would be a fold, even if he perceives me as a LAG... I think 55 is more likely than 76, because I have never seen him coldcall me, and hands like 76 do come often....