"Fold, keep your image tight so you can steal more later"

[citanul]

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There are some retarted players on party but not as many at the 200 level where I play.

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And I guess I just interpreted it differently (with respect to the tight player comment).


I was full of it anyway. I'm fairly sure the Raptors of the world would still have their way with me at this point. Plus I cash out about once every two weeks, so I don't anticipate my roll getting there anytime soon.

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doh, sorry about that, i didn't notice that in poindexter's post.

some other points:

a) while cashing out is good, there's something to be said for cashing out in a fashion that leaves room to move up
b) raptor sucks. don't let yourself get fooled by the 12 tables at once. he's a fool.

not that i want to distract from the original content of the tread. oh man, now i hate myself.

citanul

[EnderFFX]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that we need an official sounding off thread on this subject. I see this advice posted often. I believe it to be horrible. I think that others should believe it to be horrible. Moreover, I believe that people who throw this advice around do so at spots where it's totally silly to consider the universe in such a way.

I have a lot to say on this subject, but I wanted to start by opening up the floor to anyone who wants to say anything about this.

A few points to start:

a) in general, your opponents don't pay that much attention
b) in general, even if they know that you're entirely nuts, they're not correct, by icm, to call you in the late game anyway.
c) goes with (b) no matter how nutty they think you are, there are limits to how far down their calling ranges go (different from (b) in that (b) states that there are limits as to how far it *should* go down, not how far it does go down)
d) passing up +EV spots is bad.
e) image is worth a lot less than people think

(e) is really the crux of the other 4 points.

citanul

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I'm a beginning SnG player playing the $10 and $20 and doing ok at them. I have been following the basic advise of:

1) In the first 2 rounds raising:
AA, KK, QQ, AK
calling unraised with:
pocketpairs and once in a while hands like AXs.

2) Following the 10 BB rule near the mid and late game.

I am still earning the nuances. Are you saying I should loosen up and play a few more hands or are you just putting to rest a misconception?

[citanul]

loosening up a little bit probably wouldn't hurt you, unless your post flop skills are bad. you probably can make a profit playing exactly the way you are now, but as you move up, adding some other abilities beyond "i'm tight" will be important.

in general, the advice i'm crticizing is given about spots where stealing the blinds would be reasonable, but some deem it unnecessary, for various reasons, including "image."

my overall goal is to hopefully make people think more about image, and what they sacrifice to get it, or to more accurately, make them think about what they sacrifice in hopes of getting it, in spots where it is unlikely to have any effect at all.

citanul

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
b) in general, even if they know that you're entirely nuts, they're not correct, by icm, to call you in the late game anyway.
c) goes with (b) no matter how nutty they think you are, there are limits to how far down their calling ranges go (different from (b) in that (b) states that there are limits as to how far it *should* go down, not how far it does go down)


[/ QUOTE ]
While it's true that opponents' calling ranges decrease as they notice a particular player pushing more hands, the additional range of hands with which they actually call does not overlap the range of hands with which they should call, even if those ranges include the same number of hands. For example, I see spite calls with 55- and low suited connectors. It's leaves me speachless to see a player call my push for all his stack 5-handed when he has 44 and I have 96o. On one occasion, my opponent won the hand, eliminated me, and then typed something like "I knew I could catch you bluffing eventually." Most players have a poor intuitive understanding of ICM theory and how it relates to their necessary Gap (as in Gap Concept) when BB/average stack gets high.

It's not simply a matter of "up" or "down" as most players don't know how to properly value calling hands against standard pushing ranges as compared to "any two." Notice how far the lower PP's drop against any two cards. Most people don't. It's a matter of being able to find a better spot later. Sure 22 is about 50% against any two and about 40% against a more refined pushing range, but if you think your opponent is pushing any two, you're more likely to pick up a better hand on the next orbit when hold 22 against a radom pusher than against a more careful one.

eastbay's HU hand rankings

SlimP

[poindexter]

"going out of your way and passing up good spots in order to possibly change the way one or two opponents might think about you"

I rarely go out of my way to pass up these +ev opportunities. Playing these situations aggressively is just as important for your table image as playing tight and folding allot. As long as my read tells me I am ahead I will call or raise. I once put my tounament on the line to call another 2+2ers all in raise with K-5o because I was sure he was raising any 2. sure enough he had a 8xo type hand. He won the hand but from that play on he will never confuse my tight game with a weak game. Level 1-3 is the only exception where I am a little less aggressive with these spots because I know I can still find them after level 4. For example lets say its level 1 and I hold AK facing an all in bet. my read says I am most likely a coin flip but there is only a slight chance he may be holding a dominated A. I will easily fold here. My reads are good enough that I can pass on probable coin flips and take them later when the correlation is higher for me to finish itm.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
"going out of your way and passing up good spots in order to possibly change the way one or two opponents might think about you"

I rarely go out of my way to pass up these +ev opportunities. Playing these situations aggressively is just as important for your table image as playing tight and folding allot. As long as my read tells me I am ahead I will call or raise. I once put my tounament on the line to call another 2+2ers all in raise with K-5o because I was sure he was raising any 2. sure enough he had a 8xo type hand. He won the hand but from that play on he will never confuse my tight game with a weak game. Level 1-3 is the only exception where I am a little less aggressive with these spots because I know I can still find them after level 4. For example lets say its level 1 and I hold AK facing an all in bet. my read says I am most likely a coin flip but there is only a slight chance he may be holding a dominated A. I will easily fold here. My reads are good enough that I can pass on probable coin flips and take them later when the correlation is higher for me to finish itm.

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egad.

a few points i guess:

a) no one was talking about you in particular.
b) most of these spots are spots that get responses of "fold to preserve tight image" are preflop blind steal spots, so all the reading in the world isn't going to help you know what the blinds have before they act
c) "as long as my read tells me i am ahead i will call or raise" is just plain stupid. it shows a clear lack of tournament theory understanding, leading to
d) "once put my tournament on the line to call..." yeah, he's never going to confuse you for a good player again. just because you made a call that made his play -ev does not mean that you were personally taking the +ev. you were almost undoubtably giving it to the other players at table, if we're talking any reasonable spot. i don't know why you think that calling off your whole stack with trash is some sort of "anti-weak" but it has nothing to do with it.
e) if you're sure that every game you're going to be able to find spots later in the game that are great, i envy you. me, sometimes i have tournaments where all my reasonable hands to play are in the early stages of the game, and my late game is dominated by me pushing trash by necessity.
f) oh my god, you're for real? you fold AK facing a preflop all in in level 1? i bow to your superior poker prowess. seriously. i'm sure you're WAY ahead SO often at the 200s.
g) i think you have some issues understanding how bad passing up significant edges is early in the game. though that isn't directly stated in your post.

citanul

[poindexter]

Hi Mlagoo,
I learned proper sng strategy by beating them not through any T.J book. There is no book I am aware of that will teach you how to beat the stt's. I went from the 10's to the 215s in a short 3 months time span. To put my strategy in a nutshell it involves exploiting mistakes. The mistakes are made by both fish and 2+2ers who subscribe to your over aggressive (push too much my image doesnt mean anything because gigabet raises Q3o) doctrine.

I doubt I will make any friends but the advice here is often times bad. I realize I play differently then 99% of the players here so I am not surprised at your general tone. I also believe everyone is limiting their earning potential by playing 2+2 stt style poker. If you think I am full of Sh#T then look up my stats on poker prophecy and find anyone and I mean anyone with a better itm in the 100's and 200's.
Good luck, Fisheyplayer

[lastchance]

Variance matters. And I think 2+2 poker bubble and push/fold STT play is better than anyone in the world.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Mlagoo,
I learned proper sng strategy by beating them not through any T.J book. There is no book I am aware of that will teach you how to beat the stt's. I went from the 10's to the 215s in a short 3 months time span. To put my strategy in a nutshell it involves exploiting mistakes. The mistakes are made by both fish and 2+2ers who subscribe to your over aggressive (push too much my image doesnt mean anything because gigabet raises Q3o) doctrine.

I doubt I will make any friends but the advice here is often times bad. I realize I play differently then 99% of the players here so I am not surprised at your general tone. I also believe everyone is limiting their earning potential by playing 2+2 stt style poker. If you think I am full of Sh#T then look up my stats on poker prophecy and find anyone and I mean anyone with a better itm in the 100's and 200's.
Good luck, Fisheyplayer

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oh ok

if poker prophecy says so

i must have missed when they become known for anything other than their glaring inaccuracies.

that's awesome that you fold AK preflop sometimes. i can't even imagine the kind of raw poker talent it takes to make a BOLD laydown like that.



....

[dethgrind]

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My quickly summarized opinion on the matter....your image is irrelevant early in the tournament and you should pay almost no attention to it.

Later on when it becomes 2-5 handed, your image does play a part and some plays in which the EV difference is close could swing the other way for image purposes or because of your image.

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Great stuff.

Don't forget how hugely sucky it is to get spite called, or just called at all late in the game. So often, you desperately need those blind steals. When Adanthar pushes 700 on the button with 75/150 blinds and gets called by A2o in the SB it can cost him BIG TIME in icmEV.

I claim that if you make a couple folds early that could have been played for a marginal profit, and it buys you just one extra blind steal late (like not getting called by A2o), the trade off is probably worth it. Most people are saying that it usually won't buy you an extra blind steal, and I don't disagree with that. But if you're ever in a close situation, and one course of action could buy you a blind steal later, take that course of action.