a 150 hand i forgot about - Page 3

James282 · #21 09-20-2005, 01:31 AM

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"This is a once in a while line"

then why not 3 bet preflop and get things started off right?

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An intriguing option that I probably don't pursue with hands like this quite enough.
-James

willie24 · #22 09-20-2005, 01:36 AM

i agree that this is much better live than online.

i still dont know why you assume that he has a draw or something less than top pair. couldnt this be 2 pr or set or straight?

it costs a lot to find out if he has crap.
and if he's bluffing all the time on the turn you are making a lot of money on your OK hands. why mess around with your bad ones?

mike l. · #23 09-20-2005, 01:43 AM

part of me thinks youre right and that you should make plays like this, and im worried that i may be unable to comment fairly because while ive played higher it was with mixed success. but the other part of me thinks that you are giving up too much here without a pair at least for backup.

mike l. · #24 09-20-2005, 01:49 AM

i think the thing is to recognize he's been messing with your blinds too much. then think about what his weakneses are. not just can he lay hands down, but what sort of hands does he overvalue, what sort of plays does he like to make and hate to have made against him, any tells, etc?

then wait for just the right hand and decide right then that you are going to do everything you can to win a certain pot. 3 bet preflop and then forget about what you have in the hole and use the flop to determine what youre going to represent. pick two hands. for instance if it comes JsTh6h you can try to act like both AK and a backdoor heart draw with KJ. do whatever you can to represent that hand in his mind.

ok ive blathered enough. it probably wont work ever if he's got top pair. really good players sometimes start a bluff and then give up just in time to save a bet or three.

James282 · #25 09-20-2005, 01:56 AM

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i think the thing is to recognize he's been messing with your blinds too much. then think about what his weakneses are. not just can he lay hands down, but what sort of hands does he overvalue, what sort of plays does he like to make and hate to have made against him, any tells, etc?

then wait for just the right hand and decide right then that you are going to do everything you can to win a certain pot. 3 bet preflop and then forget about what you have in the hole and use the flop to determine what youre going to represent. pick two hands. for instance if it comes JhTh6c you can try to act like both AK and nut heart draw. do whatever you can to represent that hand in his mind.

ok ive blathered enough. it probably wont work ever if he's got top pair. really good players sometimes start a bluff and then give up just in time to save a bet or three.

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You describe what I was doing on the flop - except that I didn't 3 bet preflop. I am representing any myriad of 2 pairs, sets, staights and other wonderful hands that he isn't going to love showing down 1 pair against. I am saying that this jack has either changed nothing or improved my hand. And just in case he forgets to fold, I still have a lot of ways to get there. It gets to a point where a guy is stealing from you often enough that you can't just keep folding preflop or calling preflop and folding the flop. Sometimes the cards don't fully cooperate quickly enough for you to tell him to keep his dirty hands away from your [censored] blinds, and you need to slow him down in spite of them.

It's funny, because I am really uncomfortable making plays like this at pots. The good thing is, I am not forced to make them very often.
-James

mike l. · #26 09-20-2005, 02:01 AM

ok here's one really nasty thing you couldve done on this hand to induce the laydown:

flat call the turn raise and donk bet the river. that might do the trick. the turn 3 bet in a c/o-bb steal war just screams desperation. it puts it in the realm of okay either this guy has noticed i make laydowns and he's bluffing or he's got the nuts. takes the pressure off and makes calling down easy.

but the smooth call/donk bet says to him, "i have something and ive had something the whole time, and i think youre fos and weak enough to pay me off", that will embarass a young guy into folding enough i believe, meaning he'll be too embarassed to "pay you off" there.

James282 · #27 09-20-2005, 02:23 AM

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ok here's one really nasty thing you couldve done on this hand to induce the laydown:

flat call the turn raise and donk bet the river. that might do the trick. the turn 3 bet in a c/o-bb steal war just screams desperation. it puts it in the realm of okay either this guy has noticed i make laydowns and he's bluffing or he's got the nuts. takes the pressure off and makes calling down easy.

but the smooth call/donk bet says to him, "i have something and ive had something the whole time, and i think youre fos and weak enough to pay me off", that will embarass a young guy into folding enough i believe, meaning he'll be too embarassed to "pay you off" there.

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ggbman suggested that as well, and I think it is a similarly good line - I just think the psychological aspect of having to call 2 more bets would weigh more on *me personally* which is why I assume others feel the same way. I think it's probably player dependent as to which line will induce the fold more often - your reasoning is sound if the opponent is thinking that way, but against weaker opponents I will be more inclined to call with marginal hands on the river in situations like you describe because I so often see desperation bet outs on missed draws(the spades in this example).

Another way I think about it is this. Let's say I post a hand where I raise on the button with A8o(or maybe even ATo). The BB who is a young player who seems solid enough but who hasn't gotten out of line calls the bb. The flop is T83 with 2 spades, and he check-raises. I decide to raise any turn for a free showdown if it's scary or for straight value. The turn is a jack, and now there are a lot of hands he'll call with if I raise but maybe won't pay off a value bet on the river, so I raise. Woops, he three-bets. I have the odds to try to improve to two pair or better so I call. The river bricks - he bets out and I fold. Or maybe I call and he shows JT and I feel like a fool. Either way, a lot of plans to raise the turn can go haywire(especially when an overcard hits) and being able to raise or reraise without the best hand from time to time can't be a horrible image to have.
-James

J.A.Sucker · #28 09-20-2005, 02:36 AM

Mike,

It makes me really happy to hear you write this. You have no idea how right you are... then again, I suspect that maybe you do...

James282 · #29 09-20-2005, 02:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Mike,

It makes me really happy to hear you write this. You have no idea how right you are... then again, I suspect that maybe you do...

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What situations are correct ones to three-bet (semi)bluff the turn, then? Some must be, because if there aren't then your turn three-bet gives complete information, which I hear is bad.
-James

bicyclekick · #30 09-20-2005, 03:00 AM

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This hand takes place against Paul, who is an aggressive player but one who is young and unafraid to lay down when he thinks he is beat. Since I have been at the table, he hasn't lost a showdown(even when putting in action on previous streets). He has been stealing very aggressively and isn't afraid to make a move at the turn.

Paul open raises the button and I call with Ks9h in the BB.

The flop is 8sTs3d. I check-raise, he calls.

The turn is a Jh. I bet, he raises, I three-bet, he pauses and grimaces and calls.

The river is a 4, I bet.
-James

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I'm quite suprised worm33 doesn't like this. I like it a lot.

Good hand.

Your flop line is one of those "once in awhile lines"...and I know you mentioned that but I think it's worth mentioning again. Start doing it too much and you are being a little too reckless...