Playing with high limit semi-donks

[bicyclekick]

Playing against them is very hard, and sometimes unnavoidable...and I'm finding myself in hands with them more and more often and trying to figure out some of the best lines vs them. It's new territory to me because many of them are very good hand readers and they're sooooooo aggressive. Definate winners in the game...but perhaps a little too aggro for what I imagine is best. Very often re-raising pre-flop, check-raising a ton of flops and turns, etc. Of course I don't *like* playing against them, and would avoid them if I could, but it's not always the case. Maybe semi-donks is overstating...maybe just very tough players that are a little overaggro?

I need guidance. Do you ever play hands like this after folding a decent amount cause you've missed constantly vs them??? Or is it worthless and chip spewing to try to bluff them or out aggro them? Villain knows who I am (not sure if he's a poster or just a lurker), but I had called him a bad player or something when I was pissed one time and he told me to post it on 2+2. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I'll openly admit they give me fits and I'm pretty clueless...not too much pride to ask, though. I wanna know when I play bad.

----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to bicyclekick [8d Ts]
xxxx: folds
xxxx: folds
bicyclekick: raises
villain: 3 bets from the sb
xxxx: folds
bicyclekick: calls
----- FLOP ----- [6c Qh Jd]
villain: bets
bicyclekick: raises
villain: calls
----- TURN ----- [6c Qh Jd][As]
villain: checks
bicyclekick: bets
villain: raises
bicyclekick: raises
villain: calls
----- RIVER ----- [6c Qh Jd As][5s]
villain: checks
bicyclekick: bets

Never?

[elindauer]

hi bike,

I do this sometimes when I feel I've been laying down a lot and people are starting to take advantage. I always feel like a god or a clown at the end of the hand, depending on whether or not he folds.

I think it's a mistake though and a leak I am trying to remove. The truth is, I have to fight hard to contain my inner LAG.

Good luck.
Eric

[bicyclekick]

Interesting, because I think one of my leaks might be taht up until very recently I almost *never* did this. I could count on one hand the number of times I've put in a 3rd bet like this on the turn...(with a double gutter essentially) and I think vs top players you can't always have the stones or a solid made hand when you do it. But then again, like I said, I want to learn. I'm probably wrong. Maybe you can just more or less play the stones like that...and those types of moves are chip spewing.

[DcifrThs]

thats a lot of chips to put in there. but he does fold...the problem is good and bad.

you're making the pot bigger and its not like you dont have nay outs so you gain a call when you hit and the image you have will be drastically changed...they'll be less likely to libreally c'r you if they think you can do this w/o a made solid hand... (sidenote: the reason you can count on 1 hand the times you do this is because the situation to do it doesn't come up hardly ever)

you also make the pot bigger making his oflds when he does do it extremely bad, horribly big mistakes. which makes it less likely he's gunna fold...but as thunder keller has shown, its sometimes necessary to do this...in fact, you want this hand shown down.

the question is whether its worth the loss of EV. that i dont quite know

-Barron

[elindauer]

Hi bike,

Apologies, I didn't pay enough attention to your hand to see that you have lots of outs. In this case, yes, your move should be not too common, but fine if you think there's a reasonable chance of him folding.

I was more referring to the same move while holding just nothing, which I do sometimes (although probably not on this board).

So, yeah. I think it's fine, provided you are honest with yourself about the odds of him folding and your taking it down unimproved. Anyways, rambling over. Good luck.

Eric

[Senor Choppy]

I do this against regulars somewhat often, but try keeping it spread out among players so that I don't advertise what a moron I am 50 times to the same person.

You have decent equity, so you're getting a small refund on each bet anyway. It only has to work occasionally, and no matter what happens on the river, whether you insta-muck if he bets again or you bet and showdown your ten high, message sent.

If nothing else, I think it allows you to sleep better at night after laying down a lot of hands.

[goofball]

I don't know if it's the case with you, but almost all the time I make this sort of play I"m reacting emotionally. Usually it's after a long sessino of getting checkraised on the turn with nothing. Like I said, I don't know if that's the case with you, but if it is than it's almost certainly -EV. Really, any time you react emotionally it's -EV I think.


edited to ask why didn't you check through the turn?

[PokerBabe(aka)]

bk,

I dk what limit you are playing, but I am done with this hand on the flop after sb 3 bets pre and then bets out.

LGPG

Babe [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[sam h]

It is really hard to give advice without knowing the games and opponents better. I guess my biggest question is whether you feel most of the value here (aside from the fact that you may improve on the river) is because the likelihood of a bluff/rebluff situation where your opponent may be on air/draw or is it because you think he might put down something like a jack on the river.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
I wanna know when I play bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bad. When you get caught speeding like this, you need to be able to get away from the hand before you crash and burn.

I don't think the flop raise or turn bet is terrible but what hand are you trying to represent with a 3-bet on the turn?

6.5BB, that's a lot to lose with a trash hand...but then maybe you won.