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  #1  
Old 08-27-2004, 02:38 PM
topspin topspin is offline
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Default Capped on flop+turn, who keeps firing?

First hand at the table, so no reads. I've been reading how the general consensus at 2+2 is that micro players are often too willing to give you lots of action with weak hands, and so you shouldn't be afraid to bet your good hands for value. I'm trying to incorporate this into my game, but am trying to understand the difference between TAG and LAG.

I'm mainly curious about what tactic people would adopt on the river, the rest seems straightforward.

Paradise Poker 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.05.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero (poster) checks, Button calls, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (7.40 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button caps</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (14.20 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, Button calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (34.20 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero ???

Realistically I figure I'm only afraid of a slow-played AA since I figure QQ would raise pre-flop. I'm concerned that UTG continues to lead into me after I capped the turn. Do people bet or call down here?
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Old 08-27-2004, 02:44 PM
Entity Entity is offline
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Default Re: Capped on flop+turn, who keeps firing?

Raise and call a 3-bet.

Rob
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Old 08-27-2004, 02:46 PM
DMBFan23 DMBFan23 is offline
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Default Re: Capped on flop+turn, who keeps firing?

I think you can call here. raising might be more +EV than calling, but even if so you won't find yourself in this situation often (set vs. two pair or set overset). I wouldnt worry about it too much. and UTG did eerily come alive on the turn, so there's that. if you had people trapped, I'd say raise, but with it likely just you and UTG and maybe one other, I'd call.
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Old 08-27-2004, 02:53 PM
Entity Entity is offline
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Default Re: Capped on flop+turn, who keeps firing?

I think you might be up against 99 here, but you'll be up against A9, AQ, or A5 much more often. I think calling is acceptable, but over the longrun, I prefer raising, as it keeps up an aggressive edge. I think it was here that someone told me: "if you lose to set over set, and you don't lose a lot of money, you didn't play it right." [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Hope you dragged the pot.

Rob
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Old 08-27-2004, 03:02 PM
topspin topspin is offline
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Default Re: Capped on flop+turn, who keeps firing?

[ QUOTE ]
I think you can call here. raising might be more +EV than calling, but even if so you won't find yourself in this situation often (set vs. two pair or set overset). I wouldnt worry about it too much. and UTG did eerily come alive on the turn, so there's that. if you had people trapped, I'd say raise, but with it likely just you and UTG and maybe one other, I'd call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you're right about not worrying about running into this too much; I'd cap the turn every time here so really it's just a matter of the river. I hadn't thought much about having other people along for the ride, thanks for pointing that out -- I suppose if there were at least one other passive type along for the ride, my pot equity would be enough that a raise would be automatic.
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Old 08-27-2004, 03:10 PM
topspin topspin is offline
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Default Re: Capped on flop+turn, who keeps firing?

[ QUOTE ]
I think you might be up against 99 here, but you'll be up against A9, AQ, or A5 much more often. I think calling is acceptable, but over the longrun, I prefer raising, as it keeps up an aggressive edge. I think it was here that someone told me: "if you lose to set over set, and you don't lose a lot of money, you didn't play it right." [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd discounted 99 and A9 since UTG cold-called 4 bets on the flop, and I had trouble seeing TPNK or PP w/2 overcards doing that. It seemed strange that AQ or A5 (which wouldn't have been improved by the turn or river) would keep pushing. Perhaps this is MUTB and giving the players too much credit at the micro level though?
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  #7  
Old 08-27-2004, 03:15 PM
Entity Entity is offline
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Default Re: Capped on flop+turn, who keeps firing?

At the micro levels, I honestly think you'll see something like Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] here often enough. Seriously. I've seen much worse. I'd never be surprised at what a micro player will call 4 bets with.

If you were up against AA, it happens sometimes. Just not often enough to worry about it.

Like I said, raise and call a 3-bet.

Rob
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  #8  
Old 08-27-2004, 03:25 PM
secada secada is offline
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Default Re: Capped on flop+turn, who keeps firing?

I raise and call a 3-bet and throw up in my mouth if he has AA.

-secada
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  #9  
Old 08-27-2004, 04:04 PM
Sent Sent is offline
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Default Re: Capped on flop+turn, who keeps firing?

I'm seeing more of A9 or AQ than AA or QQ, but I would get to the showdown either way. I had a guy the other day cap me on all streets with a pair of Kings to my set of 8s.

-Sent
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  #10  
Old 08-27-2004, 06:54 PM
topspin topspin is offline
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Default Results

River: (34.20 BB) (Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 43.20 BB

UTG shows Ah 9c (two pair, aces and nines).
Hero shows 5d 5s (three of a kind, fives).
Button shows Ac Jh (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 43.20 BB.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I wimped on the river, but oddly Button decides his pair of Aces with jack kicker is good and bets out for me instead. I was pretty surprised when UTG showed A9o, but seems like everyone else here did a good job of calling it -- it sounds like hands like these are more the rule than the exception.
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