God & abortion.

As I was answering another post on the Politics forum, I started thinking about abortion and realise that part of my reply would be more appropriately posted here. So here it goes:

Once more,as I thought about it, like so many moral related issues, I came across a seeming morass of contradictions for those theists that oppose it. I will say that I am unconditionally pro, pro-choice that is. I value this ability we have to make moral judgements and the meaning it may imbue our life with.

Some of the conundrums, as I see them, are:

If abortion is against the will of god, which is debated and debatable amongst various theists believers even, what is a miscarriage? Is it a god induced abortion? Or shall we call it an act of nature to ensure the continuation of our pristine view of god.

What is the status of the miscarried foetus with respect to salvation. Is it destined for limbo or something else, maybe worse? It has no consciuosness, no mental abilities at that time (see the last statement in this post).

Is there a difference between an abortion and a miscarriage? For the woman? For the foetus?

What is the explanation for miscarriage by intelligent design supporters?

For the purpose of this discussion I am prepared to err on the side of conservatism and say that both abortion and miscarriage happen before quickening, for all intents and purposes well before consciousness, at the very fist sign of movement in the womb. Movement happens well before there is the necessary neuronal system to provide consciousness, let alone moral judgement. Lets not forget that the foetus to mother physiological relationship is parasitic by any standard.


Looking forward to some intelligent answers to my genuine questions.

[RJT]

MG,

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Is there a difference between an abortion and a miscarriage?

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Not quite sure what you are asking. Is there a difference between someone dying from being murdered by someone and dying a natural death?

RJT

[vulturesrow]

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If abortion is against the will of god, which is debated and debatable amongst various theists believers even, what is a miscarriage? Is it a god induced abortion? Or shall we call it an act of nature to ensure the continuation of our pristine view of god.

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Its a natural death. Your contradiction in this case is basically a non-sequitir.

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What is the status of the miscarried foetus with respect to salvation. Is it destined for limbo or something else, maybe worse? It has no consciuosness, no mental abilities at that time (see the last statement in this post).

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I am unsure of the Church's position on this, but based on my general knowledge, I would say the soul is bound for Heaven.

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Is there a difference between an abortion and a miscarriage? For the woman? For the foetus?


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Difference how? Morally, physically, emotionally?

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What is the explanation for miscarriage by intelligent design supporters?


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I dont know, and not to be snide, but I dont particularly care enough to find out. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Peter666]

The Church's position on the fetus or any human that has not reached the age of reason is that it is bound for limbo unless it has been Baptized by Water or has suffered martyrdom (like the babies who were murdered by Herod) in which case the soul is bound for Heaven. Without reason present there is no possibility for Baptism of Desire.

And if BluffTHIS or somebody will post what is said in the "New Catechism of the Catholic Church" circa JPII and friends, I will prove that it is heresy.

[vulturesrow]

Actually, you would be the heretic if you reject the teachings of the Church vis a vis the Catechism.

[Peter666]

Bring it on. I will prove it vis a vis dogma.

[Jeff V]

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It has no consciuosness, no mental abilities at that time

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Where do you come up with this??

That's just plain not true.

[vulturesrow]

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Bring it on. I will prove it vis a vis dogma.

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What is there to "bring on"? If you reject the official teachings of the Church, than by definition you are the heretic.

[hmkpoker]

They taught us in Catholic school that there is no limbo and that the babies go to Heaven. Can't give you a reference though, I wasn't paying attention at the time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

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It has no consciuosness, no mental abilities at that time

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Where do you come up with this??

That's just plain not true.

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I'm as staunchly pro-choice as you can get, but if you can direct me to any unequivocal peer-reviewed evidence of pre-natal self-awareness, I'll switch positions in a heartbeat.