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  #1  
Old 07-05-2005, 11:15 AM
tor tor is offline
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Default UNDERSTANDING Preflop Play

I've read and won with WLLH. I've read and won with ITH. I've read 2+2 for a while now, and my ptracker stats are within acceptable limits according to the FAQ here. That should give you a feel for where I'm at with my game.

I want to *understand* pre-flop play. From what I've heard, it's a *relatively* easy part of the game to master compared to flop and later play, and is the foundation for getting a better game.

I'm sick of following hand charts blindly, and feel that I'm ready to jump into ToP or SSH, but I'm wondering about which order I should read them to really comprehend pre-flop and be able to adapt based on table/opponent texture. I'm not looking to get the quick fix, but to find the "true answers".

Advice would be greatly apprecitated.
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  #2  
Old 07-05-2005, 11:17 AM
kitaristi0 kitaristi0 is offline
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Location: Strawberry Fields
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Default Re: UNDERSTANDING Preflop Play

ToP doesn't really directly talk about preflop play, but many of the concepts apply to PF play as well. I'd read SSH first, the preflop section is quite good, not as good as the postflop section though.
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  #3  
Old 07-05-2005, 11:18 AM
jrz1972 jrz1972 is offline
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Default Re: UNDERSTANDING Preflop Play

ToP doesn't really talk much about preflop play in holdem. You should read it at some point, but to answer your questions, you should start with SSH.
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  #4  
Old 07-05-2005, 11:20 AM
tiltaholic tiltaholic is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 7
Default Re: UNDERSTANDING Preflop Play

Read SSH.

I wouldn't worry about ToP for your preflop questions.

But in general, instead of following a chart pf, ask yourself - WHY am I calling, raising, folding...if you don't know the answer post your question. And think about how and why your answer would change depending on the opponents around you...no book will tell you that.

Find GregJ's thread "The first 2 cards" or something like that...
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  #5  
Old 07-05-2005, 11:31 AM
deception5 deception5 is offline
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Posts: 59
Default Re: UNDERSTANDING Preflop Play

Read and reread SSH [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #6  
Old 07-05-2005, 11:40 AM
Aaron W. Aaron W. is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 87
Default Re: UNDERSTANDING Preflop Play

[ QUOTE ]
I've read and won with WLLH. I've read and won with ITH. I've read 2+2 for a while now, and my ptracker stats are within acceptable limits according to the FAQ here. That should give you a feel for where I'm at with my game.

I want to *understand* pre-flop play. From what I've heard, it's a *relatively* easy part of the game to master compared to flop and later play, and is the foundation for getting a better game.

I'm sick of following hand charts blindly, and feel that I'm ready to jump into ToP or SSH, but I'm wondering about which order I should read them to really comprehend pre-flop and be able to adapt based on table/opponent texture. I'm not looking to get the quick fix, but to find the "true answers".

Advice would be greatly apprecitated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised nobody has pointed you to the training wheels post from Ed Miller...
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  #7  
Old 07-05-2005, 04:53 PM
PuckNPoker PuckNPoker is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 120
Default Re: UNDERSTANDING Preflop Play

This is what I've learned in my meager time playing and studying hold-em. I would really like to hear if I am missing something glaring or just plain have things wrong.



To define how to play properly pre-flop requires just a little background:

"Making money" in Hold-em defined: Ask yourself, how do you make money in Hold-em? If you answered "By winning pots", you might not be thinking about hold-em in completely the right way (it is of course not a wrong answer!). The Theory of Poker answer is "By making your opponents make mistakes". This is absolutely correct, but doesn't help you see the mechanics of how you are making money. A simple example will show you how you can "see" yourself making money on a street by street basis:

Folded to the button..
YOU (limp,raise) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Small Blind limps with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Big Blind limps with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]


Lets look at these three hands in term of "pot equity", the number of times you figure to win with your hand versus the other hands:
8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] = 27.4%
K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] = 17.7%
A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] = 54.9%

Now lets look at how much money you "made" if you just decided to not raise your hand:
(To determine how much money you made on a street is a simple formula ((# of bets going into the pot on this street * Pot Equity) = Expected value you figure to win from the bets going into the pot)-Bet size.
The pot right now is 3SB * .549 = 1.647 SB
Now subtract how much it cost you to enter the pot 1 SB and you get .647 SB. In a $1/$2 game you just made almost 65 cents!

But if you raised you would have made almost 1.3 SB on this street! Betting and Raising with a pot equity advantage is the way to make money in holdem
(also note if you look at the above formula and look at it in conjunction with pot size, when the pot get large the Ed Miller adage "Save pots, not bets" becomes obvious as the right play, but I will leave it to you to figure out why that is so)

So now that we have covered how to evaluate money made on every street, we can look at pre-flop play.


In early position you have no information yet about your opponents hands, so you have to be tighter with your calling standards and tight with your raising standards. Watching your opponents and seeing someone who is positionally aware in their hand selection is the first sign of someone to watch out for. As you get nearer to the dealer button, both your calling and raising standards can be relaxed. It is less likely that someone has a good hand behind you (so you wont be raised) and you also get to see how many people are in the pot (some hands become more playable with fewer or more people in the pot and you can adjust accordingly). Your preflop hand selection will be in constant flux based on how many people are in the pot, WHO is in the pot (good players are harder to play against), where you are in relation to the dealer button, who is in the blinds, and where you are in relation to the good and bad players.


How do hands derive their strength pre-flop in Hold-em?
Pot equity advantage: Our hand figures to have an edge over the field, so we raise for value to maximize how much we make on this street. "But how do we know if we have the Pot Equity advantage?", you know because the other players tell you what they have by their betting patterns (i.e. they raise a good hand but limp with a weaker one). You know because you were watching how many times players entered a pot ("any two will do" type players hand can be treated as random cards). You know because you watched what cards your opponents were showing down ("That guy played J5o!","That guy only plays high cards"). You want "know" with absolute certainty of course, but by playing tight and picking cards that match the situation you can and should raise liberally when you feel you have the pot equity advantage. This magnify your opponents mistakes of either previously limping with a bad hand or cold calling later with a bad hand.

As the pot gets more multiway, the pot equity of various cards change. Suited + Connected card value goes up, high card value goes down. Conversely, as the pot gets more shorthanded High card value becomes more important, being suited and connected less important.

Post flop strategic advantage: Well now you know you can always enter the pot with the best hand, why would you possibly get involved in a pot with less than the best hand. You do so because A) it's fun to play more hands B) It is even more fun to play more hands profitably! This is where the concept of post flop strategic advantage comes in. You play smaller cards, or worse cards because its post flop strategic advantage makes up for its pot equity disadvantage. Certain cards such as pocket pairs and connected cards (and to an extent suited cards as well) have a post flop strategic advantage because it is harder to read someones hand when they have these cards. Hitting a set is one of the most profitable plays in holdem precisely because it is very hard for your opponents to figure out they are beat. The same with connected cards, many players have trouble seeing straights as a danger. Where most slowdown when a third flush card hits many don't when a card hits that completes a straight. Position is another advantage that makes up for lack of pot equity early on. Since you have more information than the rest of your opponents in later position you can make more profitable decisions.

What are some of the "plays" you can make pre-flop?

Basically the "plays" you make in pre-flop holdem boil down to raising "light" (with a substandard hand). Here are a couple of examples.

Raise to isolate A weak tight player limps in from EP, it is folded around to you in the cut off. You raise with QTo to try and get heads up (fold the button and the blinds) with the weak tight player knowing he will fold all but the best of flops. This type of play only works if the blinds are tight. This play is made to try and maximize your positional advantage.

Open raising I'm not sure if this is a "play" as much as just a good idea. Be more likely to raise with any cards you might have called with if it is folded to you in late middle position or better. If the button or blinds are loose and/or agressive you will be less apt to do this. But if someone doesn't defend their blinds enough is in the blind and the players to your left are tight raising with a bare Ace or small pocket pair becomes a good play. You will likely win the blinds. Note, someone just calling in a previous position "protects" the pot somewhat from this play.

What are some of the biggest mistakes you can make pre-flop

Playing to many hands: This is such a huge mistake because it happens so frequently. If you are playing too many hands, in a simplified world, it means you are putting money in with the worst of it. And that isn't how a gambler makes money.

Cold calling : Cold calling means to call someones raise without you having put any money into the pot. It should rarely be down, if a solid player raises UTG and you have KJo this should be a no brainer fold for you. You must tighten up considerably when someone raises in front of you, and in many ways this is a raise/fold decision unless many people are in the pot and you have a hand that plays well multiway (small pocket pairs played with a "no set no bet" mentality).

Not raising enough: As we saw in the pot equity example in the beginning, getting the most money in with the best of it is a sure fire way to make money. You need to maximize this advantage when it presents itself.
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  #8  
Old 07-05-2005, 04:58 PM
Hojglad Hojglad is offline
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Default Re: UNDERSTANDING Preflop Play

When in doubt, raise. It's more fun than calling or folding.
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  #9  
Old 07-05-2005, 04:59 PM
Greg J Greg J is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Baton rouge LA
Posts: 10
Default Re: UNDERSTANDING Preflop Play

I'm shocked you dont have it book marked. Hehe. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Here is a link.

Aaron also gave a link to Ed Miller's training wheels post. Here is another one.
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