Waiting till the turn to protect a hand

[CMonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Incorrect. Let's say it's you, with TPTK, vs a flush chaser. Think of it this way. If flush guy has correct odds to chase on the turn (ie, his call is +EV) that +EV has to come from somewhere. That someone is you. The +EV he gets actually comes from your flop raise, which subsequently gives him proper odds to call the turn as well as the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite. If you raise on the flop and allow your opponent to now correctly call on the turn as well, part of his now slightly +EV turn call is coming from you, but the rest is coming from his own bet that he must put up on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
The reason is that when he hits his flush, he doesn't just win your bet, he wins the entire pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, by the same token when he doesn't hit, you win the flop bet and the entire pot. And with TPTK against only a flush draw, you have greater pot equity and win more often than he does.

[ QUOTE ]
Your goal is not to charge him as many bets as possible, it is to give him improper odds to chase his flush, so that his call will be -EV, and the times he makes his flush and wins the pot will not compensate for the times he misses. By giving him -EV to call, you are gaining the most +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. True, if you don't bet, leaving your opponent improper odds to call on the turn, if he then calls on the turn to draw, it's -EV to him. But now instead of charging him to draw out on you on the flop, you are giving him a free shot. In exchange for forcing him into a -EV situation on the turn, you increase the +EV of his flop draw.

bernie covered the topic of equity already, but you can see in this heads-up situation that value betting cannot be bad. If value betting is bad holding TPTK because it decreases your EV, then betting must be good for the flush draw. By betting it up, the flush draw is artificially creating his own pot odds for the turn. But this doesn't make any sense; how can it be a value bet for the flush draw if he's behind?

The balance that needs to be considered in these value bet vs. protection situations is the worth of the making a value bet vs. the value of merely checking/calling and getting people to fold on the turn (thereby increasing your pot equity).

[djoyce003]

yeah I know but was just workin on making the math work, that made it easier and more pronounced with this particular example...should have made it a gutshot str8 or something. Thanks for nitpicking tho.

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]
What you're missing is that when they call, you get a share of their bet. When they fold you get their share of the pot, which is bigger whenever they have the correct odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this comment makes a great point, and would indicate that you are okay raising both the flop and turn against a heads-up opponent, but against multiple drawing hands it is crucial to be able to make them fold.

If you are against one guy w/ an open ended straight draw you have a lot fewer cards to dodge on the turn and river than if you're up against a flush draw, open ended, and backdoor flush of a different suit. Thus, much more important to be able to offer incorrect odds on the turn against multiple draws. If you've given all 3 of them extra odds on the flop, you're very likely beat.