Knowingly Taking the Worst of it

[durron597]

Post deleted by Chief911

[Che]

Post deleted by Chief911

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a working link to Giga's post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Grrr, I didn't even check, I just posted and moved on.

[Chief911]

Post editing skills so broken. Sorry Che. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Post deleted by Chief911

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Thanks boss.

[bruce]

In reply to A_PLUS:

I struggle the most in this area also. We're pre-bubble and
I have around 10 BB's left. It seems to me the better players continously make better decisions in this area. They push and everyone folds or when they push they always seem to have two live cards. I think I'm getting better at this area. I think there's a lot more than what is your M. Poker has different dynamics every hand which changes how
you should be playing every hand. If a guy lost most of his
stack I would be reluctant to push with a less than premium
hand. If the loose big stack is in the BB I won't play most
hands. There are hundeds of variables and no chart can tell
one how to play each hand from all the different positions.
This is where you need to have a good intuitive understanding and feel for the game.

Bruce

[woodguy]

I really like these two quotes and I think they are relevent.

"The typical tournament player should not ever turn down any situation with the smallest of edges. You could even argue that he should gamble in situations where he has slightly the worst of it. But that is not the way the vast majority of mediocre tournament players operate"

David Sklansky Tournament Poker For Advance Players p.25


"When I play (tournaments), I often feel as if I am in a race to get the chip lead at my table."

Barry Greenstein Ace on the River p.214


When thinking about knowingly taking the worst of it, I have always been stumped as to the extra "steallng/bullying/bigstack" value to assign those chips.

You cannot assign the same value to all players as all players will not use those chips to the same later and accumulate the same "extra" amount of chips later as a result of having the increased stack.

For the sake of discussion I do think you can come up and x factor. i.e. I can accumulate yBB's with a 20BB stack, but I can accumulate (y)(x)BB's with a 40BB stack.

I think this x has to be a function of the average stack at your table, the ratio at which you outstack your opponents, and your ability to use the big stack effectively.

For instance, if you have get to 200BB's and everyone has 100BB's your advantage is no where near having 20 when everyone else has 10.

So to get a true value, we should take into consideration:

a) blinds size

b) your stack size

c) stack size of opponents (opponents at your table, not the "average for the tourney") I can only bully those at my table, not the entire tourney. If the tourney average is 15BB's and I have a 30BB stack and everyone else at my table has 60BB then my 30BB isn't worth nearly as much as it would be if everyone at my table had 10BB's. Tourney average stack is a useless stat.

d) your ability to gains chips as a result of having more chips.

e) motivation for opponents to play weak-tight (bubble considerations, etc)

Although I am not good at being a real bully with the a big stack, I really make good use of the extra options it affords me in any given hand, so to me the big stack has a benefit, especially early, and on the bubble.

Another consideration for me, is "who is the villian in the hand".

If I have slightly the worst of it with the opportunity to take a big chunck of chips from MLG, JohnnyBax, Ackbleh, Rabscuttle, etc, I am more willing to do it as I think they have a skill advantage over me and taking their chips AND outstacking them after the hand would help negate that advantage.

Conversely, if my table is not that impressive and I feel that I can (Che forgive me) *find a better spot*, I am less inclined to gambool it up with the worst of it.

If we look at an example, maybe it can help define the x factor.

I have a K high flush draw on the flop (9 outs), and I *know* my opponent has a pair of K's, I am 1.9-1 to get there by the river. (assume no redraws for either)

If he offers me 1.9 or better for the rest of my chips I will take it, *usually* regardless of the opponent.

If its MLG and he offers me 1.5 on my chips, do I take it? Probably.

If I'm offered 1.5 on my chips, and if I win I have double the average stack and chiplead of the table do I take it?
Probably.

If I'm offered 1.5 on my chips by superdonk and it will bring me up even with some other stacks do I take it?

Depends on my stack size compared to the blinds, if I'm deep, probably not, if I'm getting shallow (under 15BB') and its early, maybe I'm more inclined to take it.

So to answer the original question of when to knowingly taking the worst of it, well.....it depends. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Regards,
Woodguy

[Flopzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
For the sake of discussion I do think you can come up and x factor. i.e. I can accumulate yBB's with a 20BB stack, but I can accumulate (y)(x)BB's with a 40BB stack.

I think this x has to be a function of the average stack at your table, the ratio at which you outstack your opponents, and your ability to use the big stack effectively.

For instance, if you have get to 200BB's and everyone has 100BB's your advantage is no where near having 20 when everyone else has 10.

So to get a true value, we should take into consideration:

a) blinds size

b) your stack size

c) stack size of opponents (opponents at your table, not the "average for the tourney") I can only bully those at my table, not the entire tourney. If the tourney average is 15BB's and I have a 30BB stack and everyone else at my table has 60BB then my 30BB isn't worth nearly as much as it would be if everyone at my table had 10BB's. Tourney average stack is a useless stat.

d) your ability to gains chips as a result of having more chips.

e) motivation for opponents to play weak-tight (bubble considerations, etc)

Although I am not good at being a real bully with the a big stack, I really make good use of the extra options it affords me in any given hand, so to me the big stack has a benefit, especially early, and on the bubble.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are on to something...we intuitively feel that having more chips than our opponents gains us an advantage, but we can't seem to quantify it. If we could determine a formula to calculate how much extra EV our chips gain once they surpass all of our opponents stack sizes, we could calculate a -EV decision more precisely.

Of course this begs the question as to what is the optimium big stack strategy, and does the big stack strategy change at diffrerent stages of the tournament.

[Crispy]

I really like the idea that Woodguy has presented. However, it is all theoretical because as he said, people use the chips they have to their advantage differently. Some big stacks have a certain range of cards that they are comfortable bullying people with. To some big stacks its just the players and not the cards. A lot of interesting ideas have been presented and I think it all boils down to the skill of the player. We have all seen shortstacks build up to a big stack just by being aggressive and we have all seen big stacks get blinded away. If you are comfortable putting yourself in a -EV situation to get these chips then I say go for it, but only if you got the skill.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course this begs the question as to what is the optimium big stack strategy, and does the big stack strategy change at diffrerent stages of the tournament

[/ QUOTE ]

I have always liked the advice in this thread.

Regards,
Woodguy