To Set Hands Please Help!!!

PokerProdigy · #1 06-15-2005, 04:21 PM

Ok, so I am really new to omaha/8 and I have already learned that a set is NOT usually a very strong hand. But in these two situations I really felt like I could continue with my set. I just wanted to know what you guys think so please explain to me if, why, and how I should have continued with my set. Also please provide some justification or thoughts with your answer so I can learn WHY to make certain plays.

Hand 1

Party Poker 2/4 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 folds, Button calls, BB folds, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (5.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Hand 2

Party Poker 2/4 Omaha/8 (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

bodie · #2 06-15-2005, 06:44 PM

Hi Poker,

I'm just answering regarding Hand #1 for now because I have to leave in a minute! From your position, you have to understand that your hand is very limited, with no low possibilities. You have, of course, set and boat possibilities, straight possiblities - but not necessarily nut straights, straight flush and flush possibilities (but 3rd nut flush).
So limping from early position would depend alot on how loose and aggressive your table is, the chance the betting might get capped before the flop and you get stuck in this hand.

After the flop, you now have a set, but someone could have a set of Aces. You have a Royal Flush possibility and a straight possibility. But there are two cards to a low, so chances are right there that you're only playing for half the pot. You would want to bet or raise to protect your set and perhaps drive out those who are looking for a club flush, but you're still on iffy ground. As others have said, when you call with an iffy hand, you often get stuck with the possibilities that then arise.

Things are worse on the turn: now there is not only a low, but a wheel possibility. Your flush hopes are gone, you essentially need the board to pair and that's all you can hope for here, and that would be only to win high. So I disagree with your bet on the turn - Button quite likely already has a made hand.

On the river he has his hand - you have a set against a likely straight and low. I would have folded on the turn, if not before.

BlueBear · #3 06-15-2005, 06:49 PM

Hand 1.

Check-call the flop and check-fold the turn. On the flop, your hand is a one-way hand and there are far too many danger cards that can fall on the later streets. On the turn, you're not getting any small hand to fold here (by betting) and this heads-up pot is just too small, let it go as a showdown from this point is likely to cost you 2 BB and at most, you will win only half the pot (you're just aiming winning your own money back if you proceed).

Hand 2 looks ok.

kyleb · #4 06-15-2005, 07:03 PM

Never play for half the pot unless there are a lot (and I mean a lot) of players in and you have the nuts (top full house, nut flush). You'll save a lot of money just following this guideline. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[edit]: That said, Hand #2 looks okay to continue on with top set. If the guy hit running low cards, good for him.

TGoldman · #5 06-15-2005, 11:00 PM

I'm going to disagree with the others on Hand 1. I think there's a good chance villain just had his low conterfeited on the turn and is now going to fold to a bet. Heads-up, are we really giving villain credit for 25xx? 235x? AAxx? I'd say those holdings are unlikely. Yes, we may be playing for only half of the pot, but unless the villain has one of the aforementioned hands, he can't be happy with his holding for either side of the pot. If we apply a little bit of pressure here, the villain is going to cave in and fold his weak/counterfeited lows.

PollyEmory · #6 06-15-2005, 11:23 PM

I'm curious -- frequently, I see people play their set in hands like #1 very aggressively, raising and reraising if possible.

Is that a bad idea? Why?

--Polly

PokerProdigy · #7 06-16-2005, 02:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to disagree with the others on Hand 1. I think there's a good chance villain just had his low conterfeited on the turn and is now going to fold to a bet. Heads-up, are we really giving villain credit for 25xx? 235x? AAxx? I'd say those holdings are unlikely. Yes, we may be playing for only half of the pot, but unless the villain has one of the aforementioned hands, he can't be happy with his holding for either side of the pot. If we apply a little bit of pressure here, the villain is going to cave in and fold his weak/counterfeited lows.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, the main reason I bet the turn is because I thought his hand was very likely to have been counterfeited, but if people still disagree with my play then let me know.

gergery · #8 06-16-2005, 04:37 PM

Hand 1: JJTTds is a playable hand, but I’m not overly excited about it. I’d think of it like 33 in holdem. You’re looking to hit your hand or fold. In O8 that means a) 2 high cards, AND b) set or c) OESD+flushdraw.

On flop: Any club, A, K, Q, T, 2, 3, 5 may give someone a better hand. Any 6,7,8 splits the pot with you. Unless you get a J, 4, or 9, (or perhaps a K, Q given your ten blockers), you are not happy here. There are no prizes for “hand ahead after the flop but before the turn card is dealt”, and with an A and two low cards on the board I wouldn’t expect folds. So I don’t think you want to fold just yet, I would also not be too happy about my hand here. Betting out and checking to see what happens are both reasonable options.

On turn: It’s very likely you are now fighting to win just half the pot. I would check-call. Betting might be ok vs. 1 opponent, but it should be thought of as a semi-bluff hoping his 23 was just counterfeited or he has a A43T type hand. However, I would not expect many players at 2-4 to fold a counterfeited 23 at this point.

River: check-call or perhaps fold. You are very likely scooped here

Hand 2:
Preflop: Completing is probably not terrible, but folding would be fine too.

Flop: I’d bet. Having a 1-low card flop is MUCH different than a 2-low card flop, and you now have either a flush redraw, or 2-blockers against someone else’s A-hi flushdraw.

Turn: I’d bet. You have to be concerned that a T9 hand just hit, but they could easily have 55,JJ, A-hi flushdraw or A2 also. And you have boat and maybe flush redraws.

River: I might bet here depending on opponents, but its close. Certainly with 3 possible straights out and a low possible checking would be fine. However, hand reading comes into play. You were not raised on the turn so no one likely has T9. For an opponent to have you beaten with a 97 or 74 means they both called preflop and on the flop with that – pretty unlikely unless they are bad fish or their other cards were A2/A3 with diamonds.

--Greg