something rather disturbing...

[axioma]

poker edge. yes i know its been around a while, but the recent thread really made me stop and think.

at what point do we say "no, thats crossing a line that shouldnt be crossed"? i use PT and PV, so im no purist saint or anything, but whilst reading through that poker edge thread something did not sit well at all. I cant put my finger on it but something felt pretty wrong.

if nothing else i feel as though the people behind PE are somehow exploting those that do not use it, for thier own profits.

this is not how poker should be [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

[SackUp]

did you really need to make a new thread about this?? There have already been several threads on using PT, PV, PE and others.

It's the same with anything. Those of use with the best tools and smarts will always do the best.

[pshabi]

[ QUOTE ]
if nothing else i feel as though the people behind PE are somehow exploting those that do not use it, for thier own profits.

this is not how poker should be [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? They're providing a service. You're purchasing it and using to exploit those that don't have it for YOUR profit.

Just like PokerTracker.

You may feel bad about PE but that's not the reason.

[HRFats]

[ QUOTE ]
did you really need to make a new thread about this?? There have already been several threads on using PT, PV, PE and others.

[/ QUOTE ]

This from the same guy that started a new thread on the July Party Bonus.

[bigredlemon]

ZING!

[axioma]

not that i have to answer to your rather useless question in the first place, but this isnt really about just PE. reading that thread was just what made me think.

poker tracker in itself does not exploit anyone. you are paying for the software then you do the work yourself in order to get data.

PE is essentially reducing YOURS and MINE expection, then charging others for this information. remeber, poker is a zero sum game, and the value you get from PE has to come from somwhere.

in my opinion (and its only my opinion), PE is i think going a little too far. i dont have problems with people datamining for themselves, and even with them trading data with other users, but to mine on a large, COMERCIAL scale is less that comendable.

i dont like it. and more generally, if you do like it, where do YOU draw the line?

[skoal2k4]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
did you really need to make a new thread about this?? There have already been several threads on using PT, PV, PE and others.

[/ QUOTE ]

This from the same guy that started a new thread on the July Party Bonus.

[/ QUOTE ]

heh

[garion888]

Actually...poker is a negative sum game...

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
did you really need to make a new thread about this?? There have already been several threads on using PT, PV, PE and others.

[/ QUOTE ]

This from the same guy that started a new thread on the July Party Bonus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya and I subsequently deleted it 2 secs after posting. The party bonus thread wasn't as glaring....honest mistake..and I rectified it rather quickly. HUGE difference.

There have been about a million posts on all these things including a post only about PE.

And there are limited people who use any of these programs. It is merely data that anyone can compile and anyone has the opportunity to use. i would draw an analogy to something else but you would probably just dismiss it and hence not worth it.

Stop using PT and PV if you are so against these programs. No one is forcing you to use them.

Regardless these programs are merely aids and do not play poker for you. You still have to play the game and these just help you get little edges.

[Raydain]

8 replies and not a legit answer to the question yet. Axioma made a new thread to ask, where are we going to draw the line on computer aids.

The game of poker is suppose to be played by an individual. It his own observation of other players that gives him a true edge over other players.

First Pokertracker came out: This is a great piece of software that helps you analyze your own game and helps you get better when you play at the tables

Next came GT+ and PV: All this does is display the stats which you have already collected. A real time saver.

Pokeredge: Now you're not collecting data by yourself, you have others get the stats on every pokerplayer on your site. This is giving you in depth notes on every player your playing against.

But all these aids just help you do what you could have done yourself. You still have to play poker right?
In my thread I made a few days ago I thought the best response went something like this: "Steroids make baseball players better like pokeredge makes poker players better. The baseball players still have to hit the ball so the only people that don't benefit from this are the players that don't use steroids. It's still baseball though. But steroids are illegal because it takes away the esence of the game. Steroids are to baseball like Pokeredge is to Poker."
NOTE: This is not my idea, I just reworded it. Check my thread on "Pokertracker is cheating" for the OP.

So what's next? We get a bot that analyzes the statistics and tells us what the most optimal move will be? It will still be poker won't it? I mean we don't HAVE to do what the bot says. We'll just be taking advantage of people have not paid for this mechanical aid.

Back to the OP question, where do we draw the line? Is the bot that tells us what to do too far? Is a bot WE program too far? Since we programed it, its making the same moves we would make. It's just saving us time.

One last thought - Once the sea of fish realize the kind of help we have been using what's the response going to be?