Good News

[nicky g]

"Israel has got to be one of the most un-tyrannical countries in Africa!"

Er...

[MMMMMM]

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alot of how they talk is the way they put things in their culture.
remember how saddam kept saying that stuff would happen to us if we came near them. its talk and hipe, and thats how they convey their thoughts. them saying death to america doesnt mean they want all of us dead or our country to be destroyed. but it is a saying meaning that they want to triumph over us and have their religon be supreme. doesnt mean they are going to blow us off the earth if they get a weapon. most people of that religon you meet are some of the nicest peole around.
there are fanatics both here and there.

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Ray, you do have a poijnt about hyperbole in some cases, and I agree a lot of them are not as crazy as their words might indicate--but some of them are, and some of those are in positions of power, or at least capable of instigating great harms.

A small percentage of a huge group is still a lot of people. I believe most Muslims are moderate and are OK people, but the beliefs of the non-moderates are absolutely insane, unreasonable, and terrifying; and they are simply very dangerous people. And there are many of them even if that many represents only a small percentage. Moreover they tend to scare the moderates too as they are the ones willing to initiate violence. The moderates hesitate to speak up against it for fear of being branded apostates or being attacked, and on this the radicals actually have much of the Koranic texts and the imams on their side.

So it's a very complex situation, and I don't see that moderation is winning, even solely within the Islamic world; rather, Islamic extremism has spread greatly over the last few decades, and it is not all in response to the West. It is also a movement within Islam that has been gaining steam on its own, as well as being fueled by conflict with the West

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"Israel has got to be one of the most un-tyrannical countries in Africa!"

Er...

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ooooops. my bad. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

I keep thinking of the Middle East as still part of African. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[twowords]

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I bet if we stopped supporting tyranny in Israel and quit killing children in the middle east with sanctions and other policies they would leave us alone.



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You are such a piece of work!

Israel has got to be one of the most un-tyrannical countries in Africa! OK, the rabbis get a tad tight-assed at times, but they seem to keep a check on outright revolution and a few others things taught by some other religious "leaders" I can think of.



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Say what? Try looking in the OCCUPIED territories this time. I don't he was suggesting the Israeli people are being repressed. Wait, are you even in the right continent?

[twowords]

M, can you explain to us your theory on the inevitable Islamic Imperialism?

I'm especially interested in: A) Where they will try to colonize/control/invade and B) How they're going to make Western Imperialism like Belgium's Congo and French Indo-China look like kid stuff.

If your reply is quoting some crazy islamic extemists rhetoric, then kindly save yourself the effort.

[MMMMMM]

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M, can you explain to us your theory on the inevitable Islamic Imperialism?

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You're misinterpreting me. I'm not saying it is inevitable or that all Muslims are like that.

Islamic totalitarianism *already exists* in places such as Iran. Iran wishes to expand this form of governance. And Jihadists, such as bin-Laden, want to take over rule of the entire Middle East and re-establish the caliphate, before doing the same over the rest of the world--and they have announced this, too.

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I'm especially interested in: A) Where they will try to colonize/control/invade and B) How they're going to make Western Imperialism like Belgium's Congo and French Indo-China look like kid stuff.

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Iran ALREADY makes any Western rule look incredibly liberal by comparison. The Taliban too, in bed with al-Qaeda, instituted the harshest of Islamic reigns.

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If your reply is quoting some crazy islamic extemists rhetoric, then kindly save yourself the effort.

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If you're completely unwilling to listen to what the Iranian mullahs, and bin-Laden, Zarqawi, Abu Hamza et al. are clearly saying, then I suggest you just put cotton in your ears and stick your head in the sand, because you obviously have no interest in assimilating any information that runs contrary to your preconceived world view.

Imagine having a debate about the intentions of some individuals or groups (specifically in this case, the Iranian mullahs, and the Jihadists)--but disallowing the admissibility of their own public testimonies. How did you ever come up with a condition like that?

[theweatherman]

You do realize that the US government helped to install the Shah of Iran in the 1970's right? We thought he was pretty cool then because he killed all the communists in his country (along with many, many others) But now he wants to kill us, damn.

I dontthink you could ever compare the government of Iran to the devastation caused in Africa and the Americas by European (later US) colonization. Combining the slave trade, destructive economic policies, and outright genocide of the Native Americans you see the most glossed over evil in the history of the world. If you really feel that Iran is anywhere near what the west has done you need to read a book.

I think you are also making a much bigger deal of the demands of the various Islamic factions. I cant speak forthem all but I know that Osma Bin Laden and Al Qaeda have repeatedly stated that there goal is to kick westerners out of Saudi Arabia, and to destroy Isreal. Not too much about taking over the world or whatever you felt like making up when you posted.

These goals are really not that unreasonable, but thats a dissuccion for another thread.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

You speak to deaf ears, Weatherman; and then you start shouting harder (which makes you exaggerate and get out of line on some things). But it won't help, their ears are shut. Realizing that people they voted for conducts and support actions who lies far outside any normal human being's moral standard is too hard blow to self-esteem/ national pride to take, so denial is easier.

[MMMMMM]

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You do realize that the US government helped to install the Shah of Iran in the 1970's right? We thought he was pretty cool then because he killed all the communists in his country (along with many, many others) But now he wants to kill us, damn.

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Not the point at all. We're talking about the mullahs.

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I dontthink you could ever compare the government of Iran to the devastation caused in Africa and the Americas by European (later US) colonization. Combining the slave trade, destructive economic policies, and outright genocide of the Native Americans you see the most glossed over evil in the history of the world. If you really feel that Iran is anywhere near what the west has done you need to read a book.

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Not the point, again. We're not comparing historical damages but devastation but rather degrees of totalitarianism; and we're not comparing several centuries ago with the present. I'm stating that Iran has instituted the harshest of religio-fascist totalitarianism; which Iran, along with the jihadists, wants to spread; and you're comparing apples to oranges.

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I think you are also making a much bigger deal of the demands of the various Islamic factions. I cant speak forthem all but I know that Osma Bin Laden and Al Qaeda have repeatedly stated that there goal is to kick westerners out of Saudi Arabia, and to destroy Isreal. Not too much about taking over the world or whatever you felt like making up when you posted.

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Yes, they said that, but they ALSO stated their goals of re-establishing the caliphate across the Middle East and later the world. Why don't you follow ALL the threads on this forum regarding a subject for a period of a period of years; I've ALREADY posted bin-Laden's and Zarqawi's exact quotes. Nothing I made up; just IN THEIR OWN WORDS. Or why don't you do a little actual research before presuming you know ALL about what THEY think and what THEY say.

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These goals are really not that unreasonable, but thats a dissuccion for another thread.

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First of all, the Jihadists' goal of kicking out all Westerners or all Infidels from Saudi Arabia (and the Middle East) IS unreasonable. bin-Laden IS unreasonable, and the desert sands of Saudi Arabia are no more "holy" and in need of being "cleansed" of the infidel presence, than the plains of America are "holy" and in need of being "cleansed" of the non-Christian presence. Neither stance is a reasonable take or a reasonable goal. Or do you think the mirror image, that of kicking out all non-Christians from the America or the West, is somehow reasonable?

Secondly, as above, the twin demands regarding Israel and Saudi Arabia are merely tactical demands; the avowed goals of the jihadists go much deeper and broader than that.

[MMMMMM]

And you, Arnfinn, should do a little more research and reading about those who wish to violently defeat and replace all Western civilization INCLUDING YOURS IN SCANDINAVIA, before presuming that the opinions of others (such as myself) stem from closed-mindedness rather than from knowledge.