34 off suite or 95 suited

[astroglide]

i do word things too harshly, and i do need to elaborate more where i assume the details are clear (just because they are in my head).

as far as the loose/average assumption, it is something that a table is guilty of unless proven innocent in my mind.

simulation results aren't everything, but they offer a tremendous amount of illumination to situations where one thinks it's close - both hot-and-cold ones, and to a much greater extent, ai-based ones like turbo texas holdem. 2 of the best thinkers in poker today, abdul jalib and izmet fekali, rely heavily on turbo sims to formulate or validate their theories.

despite my admission that i am too harsh and too nondescript, i think the 34o/95s debate is one that is not able to be debated. it's a high card game, and being suited always helps.

your point stands about my brevity and i'm looking forward to correcting this (watch new responses and see).

i still believe that even considering a fold on the end with trips and a board like that is an indication of weak poker.

[astroglide]

http://izmet.desetka.si/furcoat.html

i think that summarizes my position on the river folds pretty well [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[DanZ]

I don't think many players, if any, would say they'd rather have JTs vs. KJs in a pot that's not raised AND NOT GOING TO BE RAISED. But tell me the pot will be raised by sommeone who would only raise with 2 cards Q or higher or AJ or a big pair, and the JTs looks a lot better. Also, if I knew theat a million players would see the flop, the JTs would probably be better.

I thik the comparison people made before is KTs vs. JTs, which is obviously situation dependent. And there are times when each hand is better to the other. David Sklansky conceded "in the hands of an expert, the KTs may be better". This is all true in many, but not all, situations.

However, most of don't play well enough that this is the case, even though we're tempted to think otherwise.

And I strongl;y suspect most of us don't play well enough that the KJs is superior to JTs in early position at a full table in most of the games we play in.

[DanZ]

In a situation whre you have a several seconds to think, and in a game where you are only offered 3 choices to make, not considering all of them is an indication of a weak mind.

[astroglide]

sorry to fork the thread here guys, i just want to finish the thought:

"In a situation whre you have a several seconds to think, and in a game where you are only offered 3 choices to make, not considering all of them is an indication of a weak mind."

do you really want to go back and forth on this with empty philosophy? the board is k/8/6/k/t, no flush possible, and only a clown's straight is possible.

while one should certainly be aware of their options (i.e. 'i can call, raise, or fold'), i think _consideration_ (i.e. 'wow that's a bet to me - i wonder if i should fold') of folding kq is ridiculous. you're getting 6.5:1, you have one of the best possible hands. this is not the place to squeeze out a dime.

you honestly think you're going to get shown a full house or a straight here after you check the turn (induces bets) and face a single bet on the river 85% of the time or higher?

[Clarkmeister]

More Pokerroom stats for you....

Total EV
KJs +.30
KTs +.20
JTs +.15

Further broken down:
XXX KJs KTs JTs
BB +.05 -.05 -.01
UTG +.25 +.19 -.18
BTN +.45 +.28 +.16


Doesn't seem that close to me. And this includes everyone who plays, so even the bad players who get tied to top pair/bad kick are included, as are those who are coldcalling raises with these hands, which you aren't.

If the average Joe makes (significantly) more with KJs and KTs than JTs, I find it hard to imagine that you don't also.

Its already been said in this thread, but Doyle is right. Holdem is a big card game. A pair of kings is better than a pair of jacks, and jacks/tens with a King kicker is better than jacks/tens with a jack/ten kicker.

[DanZ]

This is certainly interesting, but I am somewhat skeptical. Averaged results like this should often be taken with a grain of salt.

On another (more controversial note), if JTs was trivially unprofitable UTG to play, I would still play it. If AJo or KJs was, I would not.

Here's an idea - create a starting hand strategy (similar in format to ones in HPFAP and on Abdul's site) using strictly the EV numbers, and noting the fact that we occaisionally play strangely on the first round to add deception, and see how some experts and wanna-be experts regard this starting hand strategy.

We could discuss the strategy itself, an dsee how it compares to HPFAP and Abdul's adivce. I think this would d create an interesting discussion.

Thanks for the reply.

[astroglide]

abdul's strategy IS almost entirely based on turbo results (with real-life observation and validation)

[DanZ]

Why make a post about this in this thread about crappy hands in the SB?

Please throw your tantrum under the apprpriate post.

[astroglide]

it's not a tantrum, it's a response. you brought up the kq hand in this thread. i responded.

it's unnecessary to make this some kind of personal ot flaming fest. i don't have any problems with you, and i wouldn't care even if i did. i'm here to talk about poker.