I had the ace of hearts and the king of clubs in this hand.

[shant]

I would agree with a checkraise line if this pot wasn't HU but there is no 3rd player in the pot.

[HajiShirazu]

I think just bet/call flop, call turn bet and donk river is most likely to get a calldown from a worse pair. I hardly ever see worse pairs fold HU in this situation.
The way it played out you put in a ton of action and are chopping at best (however you are indeed almost certainly chopping) while making it painfully easy for him to fold any worse hand.

Flop looks good to me, I would lead the turn and call if raised, and then proceed to either bet/call or check/call the river.

[olavfo]

[ QUOTE ]
What kinds of hands are we up against here against a 16/12 tag which:

1. Give us that much action?
2. Aren't either beating us or tied?

You think we get that many bets from KK? Really?


[/ QUOTE ]
A side comment:

A significant percentage of the TAGs at 2-4 are overaggressive and play poorly postflop. They have "perfect" stats, but tend to overplay their hands. I would not be surprised to see KK or a worse ace played this way by one of these guys.

It's difficult to factor this into the analysis, but its something one should be aware of. Against these guys, reads are really helpful, since the PT stats don't tell the full story.

[jacki]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What kinds of hands are we up against here against a 16/12 tag which:

1. Give us that much action?
2. Aren't either beating us or tied?

You think we get that many bets from KK? Really?


[/ QUOTE ]
A side comment:

A significant percentage of the TAGs at 2-4 are overaggressive and play poorly postflop. They have "perfect" stats, but tend to overplay their hands. I would not be surprised to see KK or a worse ace played this way by one of these guys.

It's difficult to factor this into the analysis, but its something one should be aware of. Against these guys, reads are really helpful, since the PT stats don't tell the full story.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think these are both good points.

I felt real good about this hand as it played out, I thought I got the max out of it at the time.
But then I thought again, and was afraid I got too aggro against someone who's likely only coming along if it's a split, or is going to raise me w/AA on the river.

Results in white, if you're interested.
<font color="white"> He had AQo </font>

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
value will often be check-call, check-call, bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Yuck. I agree that the turn check-raise is bad, but this line is way too passive. Few players release kings to a flop raise, so the flop raise is almost mandatory. This is doubly true in this hand, where there is a 3rd player in the pot who must not be allowed to draw cheap.

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

My only point is that this sort of situation is EXTREMELY dependent on your opponent. If he is generally fearful of you or afraid you're making moves, get a bit more aggressive with him. If he'll cap AQ here, definitely get more aggressive. If he's tight-weak or will find a fold with KK, play more passively.

I know that personally in this type of situation I'm never putting in more than 3 BB total on the post-flop streets with KK, and would very likely be able to find a fold to a turn check-raise with that hand.

This sort of situation is very subtle in my opinion. I can think of a ton of different lines that are good against a ton of different players. I think check-calling the flop and leading the turn is viable. I think donking every street is viable. I think sometimes c/c, c/c, b/c is viable. And sometimes you just want to juice the pot.

Playing this sort of hand too aggressively against some may be costing money, just as playing too passively against some might be. It's our job to know what line our opponent demands.

[jacki]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
value will often be check-call, check-call, bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Yuck. I agree that the turn check-raise is bad, but this line is way too passive. Few players release kings to a flop raise, so the flop raise is almost mandatory. This is doubly true in this hand, where there is a 3rd player in the pot who must not be allowed to draw cheap.

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

My only point is that this sort of situation is EXTREMELY dependent on your opponent. If he is generally fearful of you or afraid you're making moves, get a bit more aggressive with him. If he'll cap AQ here, definitely get more aggressive. If he's tight-weak or will find a fold with KK, play more passively.

I know that personally in this type of situation I'm never putting in more than 3 BB total on the post-flop streets with KK, and would very likely be able to find a fold to a turn check-raise with that hand.

This sort of situation is very subtle in my opinion. I can think of a ton of different lines that are good against a ton of different players. I think check-calling the flop and leading the turn is viable. I think donking every street is viable. I think sometimes c/c, c/c, b/c is viable. And sometimes you just want to juice the pot.

Playing this sort of hand too aggressively against some may be costing money, just as playing too passively against some might be. It's our job to know what line our opponent demands.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying "it depends"?

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]


So you're saying "it depends"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep...

Extracting max. value in this sort of situation is the sign of an expert player. Different opponents necessitate a variety of different lines.

[elindauer]

Hi Deranged,

I think your "it depends" answer is kind of a cop out here. Of course it depends, all but the most ridiculous situations in the game depend.

In this situation though, we have information about the villain. He is not unknown.

He raises 12% pfr. He's pretty aggressive. It would be a bizzare combination to say the least if this guy is this aggressive but also folds KK to a flop raise. He's not likely to be extremely weak tight. Very few people are online. You may be able to construct some hypothetical opponent against whom c/c, c/c, b/c is optimal, but he's probably not anything like the guy we're playing.

Similarly, against a tight aggressive player, the turn check-raise is poor. Too many players in this mold will only cap and 3-bet the flop with at least AK, and the few times they do have KK or worse, they are 3-betting intending to take a free card. The check-raise is poor because we are waiting for our opponent to tell us on the turn that we are probably tied at best.

Yes, again, you can construct some maniac against whom this play is fine. But this guy is very patient, only 16% VP$IP. It's not that likely that he's spewing w/ KK or even AQ here.


So yes, it always depends. That doesn't mean every answer is correct.

-Eric

flop play, I love the C/R. I cap it though

Turn I bet. "I'd hate to give a free card"

River standard

The way you played it got more money in the pot tho' so I guess it was better.